Marihuana and meditation

[tomamundsen]

You misread what I said, I did not say that the experiences are boring I said that people high on drugs make for boring company.

Oh whoops. Yea, that is usually true.

Even the most banal of experiences can set off a phantasmagorical chain of thought and analysis dragging the mind to the furthest reaches of existence. And it is this, this experience of meandering analytical thought, projection into the past and future, that is the opposite of meditation.

hahaha! agreed.

[dharmagoat]

For anyone who believes that being high is somehow special: Have you ever had a thought while high that you felt was so profound that you had to write it down, only to read it back the next day and discover that it was actually rather banal?

[oushi]

However, it has the disadvantage that when I become distracted, its harder to notice that I am distracted and right myself.

I do not see it as distraction. Actually that's the whole point. When you let it wander without controlling it, you will end up in effortless here and now. If effort is used to correct the perspective it wont work out. It is Easy to test it by doing it for extended period of time. Proper meditation should not be tiresome, no matter how long it lasts.

But it has the same short-term memory problem of eventually becoming distracted and not being able to fix that as quickly as when sober.

Quick and simple question. When you are not fixing it at all, who is in control? Who is doing all those activities when you are not making corrections?

For anyone who believes that being high is somehow special: Have you ever had a thought while high that you felt was so profound that you had to write it down, only to read it back the next day and discover that it was actually rather banal?

Banal things that we don't see normally like "Simple life makes life simple". And if you think it ain't special, try to read a good teaching while high.

[gregkavarnos]

Oushi, once again you are using Dharma to justify clinging to worldly activities. You do realise that suggesting that others indulge in unwholesome behaviour is karmically heavier than engaging in it yourself?

Yes, I know, you will reply with your (boring) half-baked theory on emptiness.

Don't bother.

[oushi]

Don't bother.

Why would I? You will run anyway.

[dharmagoat]

For anyone who believes that being high is somehow special: Have you ever had a thought while high that you felt was so profound that you had to write it down, only to read it back the next day and discover that it was actually rather banal?

Banal things that we don't see normally like "Simple life makes life simple".

Rather obvious really, as well as banal.

And if you think it ain't special, try to read a good teaching while high.

The problem is so many things seem profound when one is high, there is little discernment.

[gregkavarnos]

Don't bother.

Why would I? You will run anyway.

Yes, well, sometimes the best thing to do is just turn ones back on nonsense.

[oushi]

Banal things that we don't see normally like "Simple life makes life simple".

Rather obvious really, as well as banal.

And because of that, not applied?

And if you think it ain't special, try to read a good teaching while high.

The problem is so many things seem profound when one is high, there is little discernment.

I cannot speak for all, but it is not about perceiving thing we know as profound, it's about seeing things that we discard, don't see or don't understand normally. Because of hold views, we skip parts that we think we know and understand. We are only looking for something new.
Rethink the banal parts, those are the most profound.

Don't bother.

Why would I? You will run anyway.

Yes, well, sometimes the best thing to do is just turn ones back on nonsense.

Certainly, you have nothing better to do, then read and reply to posts of someone that is boring. What is your goal here? Are you trying to pick a fight?

[Raksha]

You should not abandon your old friends because they still smoke. Instead you have to be strong enough to spend time in their company without getting sucked in, besides you might be their only sane friend and connection to the Dharma! The main problem is the attachment...when the stash-box is overflowing it's 'yippee!' but very soon when there are only a few crumbs remaining it's 'Oh no!' Over time this gives you a constant background craving. According to Dudjom Rinpoche 'All forms of smoking are manifestations of Damtsi (Samaya breaking demons)'. If you need a push to quit try the dreaded 'Four Thoughts that turn the Mind towards Enlightemnent', a Tibetan practice that involves contemplating precious human rebirth, karma, impermanence, and the defects of samsara.
R.

[gregkavarnos]

What is your goal here? Are you trying to pick a fight?

No I am not trying to pick a fight. You are enncouraging others to use drugs and justifying it with pseudo-dharmic references and I am trying to point out to you, and those that you are trying to lead down your slippery slope, that maybe, just maybe, indulging in unwholesome behaviour is not a good idea (well, according to the Buddha it isn't). If you believe that I am in contravention of the ToS with what I am saying then please feel free to report me. It may also benefit you to know that encouraging the use of illicit drugs is illegal in many countries.

[oushi]

[gregkavarnos]

Yes: banal, obvious and boring isn't it? Makes you wonder why anybody would need to repeat it.

20) When our minds are unclear and our hearts are unhappy,
We are bored doing virtue but excited by vice,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we’ve led others to acts of nonvirtue;
Hereafter let’s never provide the conditions
That rouse them to follow their negative traits.
...
(30) When our mind wanders greatly and runs towards delusion,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have neglected to meditate fully
On defects pervading this transient world;
Hereafter let’s work to renounce this existence
(And see the impermanent nature of things).
...
(56) We are drawn to the sufferings of miserable rebirths,
Yet mindless of pain, we go after its cause.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
...
(77) Someone gives us advice from the depths of his heart,
Which is for our own good, but is harsh to our ears,
And with anger we view him as if he’s our foe.
Yet when someone without any true feelings for us
Deceitfully tells us what we like to hear,
With no taste or discernment we’re kind in return.
Trample him, trample him, dance on the head
Of this treacherous concept of selfish concern.
Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher
Who slaughters our chance to gain final release.
...
(95) Though we have not a doubt, for we recognize fully
The cause and the root of mistakes we all make,
If there is still left a part of our minds that would tend
To support this delusion of self that we have,
Then destroy the firm hold of this part of our minds
That, against our true wishes, makes fools of us still.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... apons.html

Now that's boring!

[tomamundsen]

indulging in unwholesome behaviour is not a good idea (well, according to the Buddha it isn't).

But, taking intoxicants isn't unwholesome for those who haven't taken the 5th precept. The ten unwholesome actions are:

1. Killing living beings

2. Stealing

3. Sexual misconduct

4. False speech

5. Malicious speech

6. Harsh speech

7. Gossip

8. Coveting

9. Ill-will

10. Wrong views

[gregkavarnos]

You're a lawyer Tom?

But seriously, unwholesome in regards to harmful, not in regards to some legalistic definition of the precepts. Even if you have not taken the 5th precept intoxication is harmful and unwholesome. It's not taking the precept that makes it harmful or unwholesome. Taking the precept merely acts to draw your attention more focusedly or mindfully to its harmful and unwholesome nature.

Anyway, I would classify intoxicant use as unwholesome behaviour under the category of wrong views: taking intoxicants does not harm my mind.

[chickenman]

very interesting discussion here. i think it all boils down to the fact that what works for one person might not work for another. i think that, as far as pot goes, it's different for everyone. i personally don't smoke to "party", i use it occassionally to relax and reflect and "mellow out" as they say. it is common knowledge that pot "opens up" the mind to amazing details. vision, smell, taste, touch, and hearing are greatly enhanced. for example - you can listen to music that you have listened to a hundred times before and hear new things that you never noticed before that were buried deep in the mix. upon re-listening to the music when not "high", you can now still notice it - so it wasn't something that wasn't there that you only imagined was there because you were "high". it was always there. the pot just helped you to notice it for the first time. i think that same "opened mind" effect can be very helpful in meditation and reflecting in general.
it does effect short-term memory - that is why it is helpful in meditation. you can quickly get past alot of distractions that would ordinarily hinder your practice.
i do not meditate "high" all the time. only occasionally when i have been in a "slump" and need to right the ship. it does help me get back on the right track.
one man's trash is another man's treasure, right? everything isn't for everyone, but if something works for you - good.
i don't believe in "absolutes" - such as "being high is always wrong" or "being high is always right". sometimes, and for some reasons being high can be wrong and right, right?
to each his own, i always say.
and thank you all for making this such an interesting debate.

[gregkavarnos]

Ganja Sutta

Thus have I heard,

Once the Blessed One was sitting around with a few monks getting baked and he said:

"Guys...Puff, puff, puff... Cough, cough-cough, cough-cough-cough-cough, splutter, COUGH! Whoa, that one really hit the spot! Guys, I was thinking... puff, puff, yeah... hmmmm... I was thinking that... Whoa, yeah... ... ... What was I saying?"

To which Sariputra answered: "Yo, Buddha man, you gonna hang onto that joint all day or what? Pass it on bro, pass it on!"

To which the Blessed One replied:

"Yo, chill Sari man... puff, puff-puff, puff-puff-puff, splutter, cough-cough, cough..."

And all those gathered felt a great attraction to the Dharma and took refuge in the Buddha, his crew and the ganja until it was their turn to toke.

Now how delusive exactly are you to believe that smoking marijuana has any place whatsoever in Buddhist practice? If you can find ONE reference in Sutta, Sutra, Shastra or Tantra for the positive aspects of the use of marijuana in Buddhist meditation practice I will take up pot smoking again. ONE REFERENCE.

Good luck!

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

A posting from everyone's favorite Tibetan lama, Brad Warner:

Let me try this again.

Every time I make yet another attempt to explain the difference between the experiences available through the use of hallucinogenic drugs and the realities of long-term meditation practice, I vow that it will be the last time. And then a few months later I find myself doing it again.

My last article got re-posted a few places on Facebook, where it received some colorful responses. One commenter eloquently labeled me an “ignorant vagina” because I did not support his belief that drugs could get you enlightened quick and easy. On that same thread, a Facebook friend of mine posted this article that supposedly shows that magic mushrooms produce the same effects as meditation. Science has proven it. So it must be true.

To me, this is a bit like saying that if you do 150 push-ups, two hours on an eliptical machine, go on a treadmill for thirty minutes and then jack off, your pulse, your endorphin levels and the blood flow to the high-level association regions and connector hubs in the brain are exactly the same as they are if you have three and a half hours of vigorous sex with two Russian ballerinas, one of whom has dyed her hair chartreuse for the occasion because she knows you like anime characters. And then concluding that a combination of exercise and masturbation works like sex and is therefore the same thing, or at least an adequate substitute.

It doesn’t matter to me if science says it’s the same thing. It’s not. It’s not the same thing because the scientists doing this kind of research aren’t researching the right aspects of the question. They generally have little or no experience of meditation. The philosophers whose musings I have read on the subject have no idea what they’re talking about because they’ve only tried drugs, and have rarely (if ever) made the real effort needed for meditation.

Saying that the psilocybin in magic mushrooms produces the same effects as meditation is like saying that romance, marriage and family are an inefficient way to achieve an orgasm. Maybe they are if you put it like that. But this misses the point entirely. The physiological effects of an orgasm experienced with someone with whom you are deeply in love and those experienced after an hour on pornhub.com may be precisely the same. But those two orgasms are not the same thing at all.

That being said, a lot of people who do meditation make exactly the same mistake as these scientific researchers. These meditators think that the Big Moments that sometimes happen during the course of meditation are the point of meditation. If that’s what you think, it’s easy to conclude that drugs might be a more efficient way of producing the same results. There are entire schools of meditation, some quite old and respected, that have enshrined the view that the purpose of meditation is to have some great moment of awakening. So it’s no surprise to find people who have approached meditation in this mistaken way concluding that “either hallucinogenics or meditation can take you to very similar, if not the same, experiences,” as Gary Weber says at the end of his article referenced above.

The core of the mistaken belief that drugs and meditation are doing the same thing is this belief that meditation is about results. But in the real world there are no results. There is only this.

Let’s go back to my earlier example of exercise and masturbation vs. a night with two ballerinas. Exercise and masturbation are relatively cheap and easy. Join the YMCA and get an Internet connection and you’ve got all the equipment you need. There is no necessity for any kind of personal connection or commitment. But getting with those ballerinas is going to take some work. You have to meet them, which in itself is going to take a lot of sustained effort. You have to convince them you’re not a psycho. You have to form a relationship of trust and perhaps even love. This relationship will continue when the three of you wake up all disheveled and hungry in the Motel 6 the next day. Someone’s heart will probably get broken. Maybe yours. Maybe you’ll still be crying about it three years later. It’s a big investment. Can exercise and masturbation “take you to very similar, if not the same, experiences?” My feeling is that they cannot.

My decades of meditation have not been as cheap or easy as scoring a hit of E or a bag of ‘shrooms. They have taken me to some pretty crazy places, both in terms of location and in terms of interpersonal connection. I formed a strange bond with an elderly veteran of the Japanese Imperial Army. I sat for days on end in sweltering sweat boxes alongside people with whom the only common interest I thought I shared was an interest in figuring out what the frak life was, and then I saw that there really was no difference at all between us. I have faced boredom so deep it felt like it might destroy me. And I’ve watched myself dissolve and come right back together again, then noticed that even that was not the point.

If you’re telling me I could’ve done the same thing in a couple of hours on a dose of some drug, I’m going to tell you that you’re completely mistaken. Over and over and over again apparently.

We live in a society that worships medicine. It’s a quick solution that allows you to sustain an otherwise unhealthy lifestyle with a degree of comfort. We get so stressed out that we get migraine headaches and instead of reducing our stress, we look for a pill that will get us through it. We’re seduced by offers of medicines that promise we can eat all the fast food and ice cream we want and still not gain weight. We want results and we want them now with the least amount of effort. We don’t like it when someone challenges our belief in quick solutions.

But what kind of results do we get when we don’t put in real effort, when we aren’t willing to change, when we aren’t willing to accept that maybe there’s something fundamentally wrong with the way we live our lives?

People get very angry when you tell them that quick solutions don’t work. People get very angry when you tell them that the cartoons they see in their heads while they’re on hallucinogenic drugs might not be signs of enlightenment. Just because you sometimes see cartoons in your head during meditation doesn’t mean that the point of meditation is seeing cartoons in your head.

***

Make a donation to Brad and maybe he’ll finally change the subject.

http://hardcorezen.info/do-magic-mushro ... ation/1334

[gregkavarnos]

A posting from everyone's favorite Tibetan lama, Brad Warner:

[chickenman]

people get very angry when you tell them that the cartoons they see in their heads while they’re on hallucinogenic drugs might not be signs of enlightenment. Just because you sometimes see cartoons in your head during meditation doesn’t mean that the point of meditation is seeing cartoons in your head.

marijuana is not a "hallucinogenic drug", and i've never seen bugs bunny durring a sitting.
and i am not advocating getting stoned out of your mind. i am saying the occassional and controlled use of marijuana can be an effective "tool" in the fight to quiet the monkey-mind. i do not think useing drugs will pave the way to enlightenment.

[gregkavarnos]

marijuana is not a "hallucinogenic drug", and i've never seen bugs bunny durring a sitting.

Marijuana is classed as a hallucinogen and I can personally attest to its hallucinogenic capacity. A substance does not have to make you see Bugs Bunny to be classed as a hallucinogen. ie the effect does not have to be that "severe".

and i am not advocating getting stoned out of your mind. i am saying the occassional and controlled use of marijuana can be an effective "tool" in the fight to quiet the monkey-mind.

Shamatha/Shine and Sati meditations are the most effective methods to quiet the monkey mind. And let's get something else straight here, not all forms of Buddhist meditation are about achieving a state of mental calm anyway. Regardless, one should not get into the habit of requiring a crutch to calm the mind coz what happens when the crutch is not available?