Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Tilopa » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:08 am

Ogyen wrote:We can't criticize a teaching when the people in them do heinous things that have nothing to do with the spirit of the teachings. We can criticize the people doing the heinous things and work to not let those things occur as easily. But it's nothing that will ever be completely solved so long as ignorance exists. You can't fight that thick ignorance completely. It will always take a new shape through its desire to be in each one of us... Unless you realize your own buddhahood... but even then, Buddha couldn't eradicate the problem in his world, he could just awaken and teach. And teach some more..

100% correct. :thanks:
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:12 am

I have a friend who is a lama in Taiwan. I will try to find out more information.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Huifeng » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:03 am

Huseng wrote:There has been opposition to the Dalai Lama coming to Taiwan. Ven. Xingyun the chief of Foguangshan went on national television and said he opposed the Dalai Lama visiting Taiwan. That's significant because he's the grand master of the largest Chinese Buddhist organization in the world.


Still grinding your axe, huh, Jeff?

Meanwhile...

He has also encouraged reconciliation between China and the Dalai Lama.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsing_Yun

One of Taiwan's most influential Buddhist monks has urged China to turn Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, "from an enemy into a friend" in the wake of unrest in the Himalayan region.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/401032

In 1997, the Venerable Master met with Pope John Paul II of the Catholic Church and Dalai Lama of Tibet to exchange their views on the common objective of procuring world peace.

http://www.fgsman.org.uk/site/index.php ... 62&lang=en

On Tuesday, Buddhist Master Hsing Yun was quoted as saying during a joint interview with journalists from China that the procedure for the Dalai Lama's visit was wrong, as was the time and place of his visit, because he was not invited by representatives from disaster zones.

Hsing Yun said the whole thing was political manipulation.

"These are disaster zones, so he should have been invited by representatives of the hard-hit areas … without an invitation from local disaster areas, it is nothing short of a political manipulation beyond religious purposes," Hsing Yun said.

http://www.thesnowlion.com/september032009.html

While Ven. Hsing Yun was leading his own monastery to provide relief for the disaster itself, turning the entire monastery into a refuge for a couple of nearby villages just down the road which had been completely destroyed by the massive typhoons that hit 2 years ago.

But, feel free to grind your axe as you will, all it does is breed entity and division.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:25 am

Huifeng wrote:But, feel free to grind your axe as you will, all it does is breed entity and division.

~~ Huifeng


I'm not an eminent Buddhist leader going on television saying the Dalai Lama shouldn't come to Taiwan.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:44 am

Huifeng wrote:
He has also encouraged reconciliation between China and the Dalai Lama.[10]



Stuart Chandler in his work Establishing a Pure Land on Earth notes that Xingyun kept his distance from the Dalai Lama in 1997 when he was touring Taiwan for concern of upsetting the PRC government.

http://books.google.com.tw/books?id=OkE ... &q&f=false

(See page 258)

Actions speak louder than words as they say.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby dharmagoat » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:15 am

Huifeng wrote:But, feel free to grind your axe as you will, all it does is breed entity and division.

Then why condone it?
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby daelm » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:50 am

Huseng wrote:
Blue Garuda wrote:They have been very careful to avoid direct defamation by naming names ,except the Dalai Lama....

There has been opposition to the Dalai Lama coming to Taiwan. Ven. Xingyun the chief of Foguangshan went on national television and said he opposed the Dalai Lama visiting Taiwan. That's significant because he's the grand master of the largest Chinese Buddhist organization in the world.


Fo Guang Shan hopes to reconcile with the mainland. remember, it's an exile organisation, unhappily exiled too. so the long game here, as at other times, will be to try and broker that reconciliation. that takes different forms at different times, depending on the prevailing political winds.

what was his stated reason?


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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:34 am

daelm wrote:Fo Guang Shan hopes to reconcile with the mainland. remember, it's an exile organisation, unhappily exiled too. so the long game here, as at other times, will be to try and broker that reconciliation. that takes different forms at different times, depending on the prevailing political winds.



As Nāgārjuna suggested we should not bow down to low people.


Not doing harm to others,
Not bowing down to low people,
Not abandoning the path of virtue,—
These are small (points) but (really) very many.


In this case, bending to the crooked will of the PRC government is unwise for the long term. You might get short term rewards for gestures of obedience, but it will not prove ultimately so fruitful. We should also not abandon the path of virtue, which means not saying one thing and doing something entirely else.

Also,


Counsel (given to) fools
Excites but does not pacify them.
He who pours out milk for a snake
Is only increasing its venom.


In the case of dealing with the PRC government, it is unwise to give into their demands. It is like pouring out milk for the snake. It only increases its venom. True reconciliation will only happen when the PRC government sees the error in its ways and reforms itself, allowing for genuine religious freedom and not carefully calculated permission to practice under specified conditions.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Jikan » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:58 pm

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail...
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:42 pm

:lol:
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Kunzang » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:26 pm

If they really wanted to shake up the public, it seems they would've focused more on the scary sgrol ba ("liberation") practices of TB than on than on sbyor ba ("union") practices.

Sex sells; this is just free advertisement.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:17 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Huseng wrote:
There has been opposition to the Dalai Lama coming to Taiwan. Ven. Xingyun the chief of Foguangshan went on national television and said he opposed the Dalai Lama visiting Taiwan. That's significant because he's the grand master of the largest Chinese Buddhist organization in the world.

I find that rather worrying...


Are you sure it is true about Master Xingyun?

I too find this worrying. AS someone who spent a bit of time at Fo Guang Shan and understand the importance of its voice in the Chinese diaspora, I feel it was a very irresponsible comment to make.

It is also a bit of am about face for Master Xingyun, as he previously welcomed HH Dalai Lama to his flagship American temple, Hsi Lai, in Los Angeles. Photos of this visit are still widely used in Fo Guang Shan's promotional literature, at least in the English language. Master Xingyun also complained in one of his books about the Chinese government criticizing him for his "relationships with dissidents such as the Dalai Lama."

My feeling is that as Fo Guang Shan expands its operations on the Chinese mainland, they will come under increasing pressure from the government there. From what I have heard from several friends who are part of the Fo Guang movement, the rationale is that it is worth is because FGS can do great work to revive Buddhism in the mainland.

Another possible reason is market share. My friend who attended Thich Nhat Hanh's talk in Taiwan told me a Taiwanese bhikshuni stood up and asked Thay "We already have lots of large Taiwanese Buddhist organizations operating in our country. Why are you here?" Nobody likes to lose their devotees.

There have been some sex scandals with Tibetan lamas, to be sure. Which is very unfortunate. However, there are also many scandals involving Chinese monastics. Recently for example there was a high profile monk in Singapore sent to jail for embezzlement.

Part of the problem, too, I feel, is confusion due to people that are not monks and nuns wearing the robes. One of the signs shows the reality of this concern, which is something I have heard His Holiness mention at teachings time and time again.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby JKhedrup » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:48 am

Now that I have read the material also from Ven. Huifeng it seems that the view is a little bit nuanced. I did not carefully read all the quotes until now. Internet in India! I still though must in general object to the Master's statements. I was in Dharamasala when HHDL was preparing to go to Taiwan, and many, many Taiwanese requested it. I watched footage of the visit and people were moved to tears by his visit, so it was very clearly beneficial. Taking that into account, the statement by Ven. Master was unncessary.
Also, HHDL philanthropy during disasters should also be noted. Despite leading a people in exile, being stateless etc., he has donated to disaster relief in Haiti, Japan, India and Taiwan on several occasions.
Thanks to both Huseng and Ven. Hui Feng for posting all this information. Though you might not agree with eachother
the points you both bring up some fascinating points to consider about the development of Buddhism in Taiwan namely:

1. As founding masters of the large Buddhist orders of Taiwan attempt to reach the masses in the PRC, what will be the implication in terms of the freedom to speak their mind?

2. Will the leaders of these organizations continue to stand with HH Dalai Lama to try to prevent Buddhism from being completely decimated in Tibet?

3. Will the PRC really allow temples in its territory to answer to the heads of organizations based in Taiwan?

4. Will the Taiwanese traditions be able to promote a pan-Buddhist, inter-sectarian vision of the dharma? Or will it be Chinese Buddhism competing against "non-native" forms?

5. Is part of the fear regarding the Tibetan Buddhist traditions due to a misunderstanding that the Vinaya does not exist in our tradition? Or due to the attempts by the Japanese to eliminate monastic Buddhism in the period around the Second World War?

6. Is the main objective of these large organzations to promote a global Buddhism that will have a cross-cultural appeal? Or simply to serve the the Chinese and the Chinese diaspora?
7. To what degree are these large organizations influenced by hierarchical structures of Confucianism?

Just to be clear, many of these questions could be applied to the other traditions too.

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A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Indrajala » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:26 am

JKhedrup wrote:1. As founding masters of the large Buddhist orders of Taiwan attempt to reach the masses in the PRC, what will be the implication in terms of the freedom to speak their mind?


Unless freedom of speech is guaranteed across the board, no talk of political discourse or democracy would be tolerated. There are also a lot of inconvenient historical truths from the last century that could be addressed (like how the communists tried to eradicate Buddhism from not just Tibet, but China as well), but wouldn't go over well with the authorities.

I don't see this happening anyway for the foreseeable future. In Hong Kong for example journalists are complaining, rightfully so, that their rights are being slowly taken away. In the PRC officials are discouraged from actively participating in religion. The leadership is paranoid about anyone challenging their authority, and religion has a tendency of challenging secular authority.


3. Will the PRC really allow temples in its territory to answer to the heads of organizations based in Taiwan?


I don't think so. Not right now anyway. They don't even like Roman Catholics answering to Rome and not Beijing. That's why the real Roman Catholics have had to go underground.

The other thing is that Taiwanese Buddhists going to the PRC would tell everyone how they come from a democratic society with freedom of speech and freedom of religion, and that it all generally works well. Even if they didn't outright promote these ideals in the PRC, the devotees on the mainland would get the idea that, yes, they too could have social freedoms like the compatriots over on Taiwan, without society descending into chaos. It would just go to demonstrate that the Communist Party unjustifiably prohibits social freedoms and religion, and hence undermine their monopoly on power.


4. Will the Taiwanese traditions be able to promote a pan-Buddhist, inter-sectarian vision of the dharma? Or will it be Chinese Buddhism competing against "non-native" forms?


Chinese Buddhism as it stands is somewhat incompatible with the other two major forms of Buddhism, namely Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism. The former is regarded as inferior Hīnayāna, and thus it would be inappropriate to entirely accept Theravada (striving for arhatship would not be viewed favourably). Tibetan Buddhism and consequently Vajrayāna are unlikely to be really appreciated. The images of wrathful deities coupling with consorts is an issue. The consort practices, although not really practised by so many people in reality, are unlikely to ever be accepted as legitimate by mainstream Chinese Buddhists. There is also the issue that Tibetan Buddhists will say they are the sole heirs to anuttara-yoga-tantra and hence they have no use for Chinese Buddhist traditions, like Chan, Tiantai or Pure Land.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Kunga Lhadzom » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:24 pm

Huseng wrote:Chinese Buddhism as it stands is somewhat incompatible with the other two major forms of Buddhism, namely Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism.
Real Buddhism is compatible with Incompatible Buddhism :yinyang: Buddhas dwell in a state of Equanimity. Also,
may the PRC be awakened with love and compassion towards all mankind. :buddha1:
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby kirtu » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:32 pm

Huseng wrote:Chinese Buddhism as it stands is somewhat incompatible with the other two major forms of Buddhism, namely Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism. The former is regarded as inferior Hīnayāna, and thus it would be inappropriate to entirely accept Theravada (striving for arhatship would not be viewed favourably). Tibetan Buddhism and consequently Vajrayāna are unlikely to be really appreciated. The images of wrathful deities coupling with consorts is an issue. The consort practices, although not really practised by so many people in reality, are unlikely to ever be accepted as legitimate by mainstream Chinese Buddhists. There is also the issue that Tibetan Buddhists will say they are the sole heirs to anuttara-yoga-tantra and hence they have no use for Chinese Buddhist traditions, like Chan, Tiantai or Pure Land.


There is the somewhat "separate" Vajrayana transmission to China apparently from India directly that was supposed to have not died off. In Tibetan-Chinese history this has been intertwined in Chinese-Tibetan religious history but nonetheless the Chinese an make a claim to their own somewhat separate esoteric Mahayana tradition. This could at least form a basis for non-competition with Tibetan Buddhism.

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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Indrajala » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:52 am

kirtu wrote:There is the somewhat "separate" Vajrayana transmission to China apparently from India directly that was supposed to have not died off. In Tibetan-Chinese history this has been intertwined in Chinese-Tibetan religious history but nonetheless the Chinese an make a claim to their own somewhat separate esoteric Mahayana tradition. This could at least form a basis for non-competition with Tibetan Buddhism.

Kirt


Shingon in Japan stems directly from Tang Dynasty China. During the 8th~9th centuries Mantrayāna became widespread as a popular form of state endorsed priestcraft, whose ritual technology was seen as extremely efficacious in worldly matters. Of course there were also many practitioners, though the traditions were largely supported by the state and in return it wanted worldly benefits from the various protective rites.

Chinese Mantrayāna at the time was limited to yoga-tantra, and not anuttara-yoga-tantra, hence the absence of consort practices. There are wrathful deities, but none of them in union. Some scholars speculate consort practices may have entered China briefly among a few masters and disciples in closed circles during this period, but it clearly never became anything significant.

Mantrayāna in China was largely crushed in 845 under Emperor Wuzong during the great Buddhist repression, but nevertheless many esoteric practices lived on in common monastic practices such as the use of mantras. However, the formal practice lineages which require initiation died off in China proper, but did survive in Japan in Tendai and Shingon. There are some small groups in Chinese Buddhism which claim to have inherited a secret Mantrayāna lineage going back to the Tang Dynasty, but their claims are questionable as there is no historical material to demonstrate that this secret lineage existed covertly for a millennium and only now has reappeared.

In recent years Shingon and the practice lineages have been transmitted to Taiwan from Japan, and are practiced by a small number of individuals. I would venture to say, however, that Tibetan Vajrayāna is still more popular than Shingon.

Tibetan Vajrayāna has existed in China proper for many centuries, but it was largely limited to the aristocratic circles, particularly during the Qing Dynasty where the Manchurian elites endorsed it.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby tktru » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:23 am

Their claims of the anti-orthodoxy of Tibetan Buddhism stenches of religious and racial intolerance, nearly at the level of the Westboro Baptist Church.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Zhen Li » Sun May 26, 2013 6:38 am

Indrajala wrote:Mantrayāna in China was largely crushed in 845 under Emperor Wuzong during the great Buddhist repression, but nevertheless many esoteric practices lived on in common monastic practices such as the use of mantras. However, the formal practice lineages which require initiation died off in China proper, but did survive in Japan in Tendai and Shingon. There are some small groups in Chinese Buddhism which claim to have inherited a secret Mantrayāna lineage going back to the Tang Dynasty, but their claims are questionable as there is no historical material to demonstrate that this secret lineage existed covertly for a millennium and only now has reappeared.

I'm not sure how frequent it was in the past, but presently in many 'mainstream' Mahayana traditions in Chinese Buddhism, individuals may have a personal Tantric practice. They are "esoteric" in the sense of being confined to the individual, rather than being an open tradition practiced collectively.
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Re: Anti-Tibetan Buddhism Signs

Postby Son of Buddha » Mon May 27, 2013 7:03 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:I just wonder who is the organization that can have the money and put the advertisement like that?


I suspect it is these guys: http://foundation.enlighten.org.tw/trueheart_en/14

Don't know if they are local Taiwanese crazies or PRC front group. But yes they don't like the idea of Tibetan's coming over and having their women - or so their argument seems to run.


Is this group very popular in Taiwan?(do they have a large part of the population that follows them?)

Who is their leader and is he ordained with lineage?

Or are they just regular laity who feel they have been wronged somehow and are taking it out on everyone?
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