Indeed I have made no comment about whether he was a good teacher or bad. So not only are you judging me, you are prejudging me, which is far worse. How do you explain this?So now please say it clearly: you mean, CTR can not have been a good teacher, because he was taking alcohol and ... (I don't know what else) ?
Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces," so how can ANYONE be qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers?Karma Dorje wrote:Given that you don't accept that the Buddhist Dharma produces the transformation that it claims, in what way do you feel qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers? What's the point? You can't know the mind of another. Whatever happened between Trungpa and his students I am quite sure is only their business and not mine. Just because I personally have no interest in a teacher who uses the methods he does doesn't mean I dismiss the profound transformative power of the Dharma.
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
- Karma Dorje
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
The point is, if you don't believe that Buddhist Dharma (of whatever type) produces the transformative and liberative results that it claims, why are you posting disparaging claims about those that do, whatever their foibles? If you think that it is all just a story that people tell themselves, then you don't even have genuine refuge in the Three Jewels let alone qualification for anything like Vajrayana that depends on refuge. What's the point of trolling a Buddhist board if you don't believe in it?boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces," so how can ANYONE be qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers?
No, I mean his teaching methods like the quasi-military Dorje Kasung, wearing suits, eating oryoki, etc. Gossiping about the personal life of a guy that's been dead almost 30 years is of no interest to me.boda wrote:What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Well, boda?Mkoll wrote:And what if finding meaning transforms someone?boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
This doesn't seem to boda well.Mkoll wrote:Well, boda?Mkoll wrote:And what if finding meaning transforms someone?boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
That's like a triple or even quadruple entendre.dzogchungpa wrote:This doesn't seem to boda well.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Well known facts are not disparaging claims. But I don't understand your question to begin with.Karma Dorje wrote:The point is, if you don't believe that Buddhist Dharma (of whatever type) produces the transformative and liberative results that it claims, why are you posting disparaging claims about those that do, whatever their foibles?boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces," so how can ANYONE be qualified to comment on its practitioners and teachers?
* * WANTING * * to believe, perhaps wanting too desperately, is indeed what the topic is all about.
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Well what? All sorts of things change people, including meaning.Mkoll wrote:Well, boda?Mkoll wrote:And what if finding meaning transforms someone?boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
The Eightfold Path may indeed lead people to the cessation of suffering. That is certainly a meaningful belief to hold.
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Boda, you seem to be interested in Trungpa but I'm wondering if you have read any of Trungpa's books, or any books about him?
If not, I suggest you do. A few good memoirs are now available, all on libgen too, by people close to him:
"Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chogyam Trungpa" by Jeremy Hayward, whose story about the water into wine incident opened this thread,
"Dragon Thunder: My Life with Chogyam Trungpa" by Diana J. Mukpo, his wife,
"The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant" by John Riley Perks, his "butler" for 7 years,
and this:
"Recalling Chogyam Trungpa" edited by Fabrice Midal
while not a memoir, is a good collection of essays about him by many well-known and interesting people.
To get a feeling for his teaching you could try these:
http://www.shambhala.com/the-profound-t ... harma.html
Why not have a look and see what you think?
If not, I suggest you do. A few good memoirs are now available, all on libgen too, by people close to him:
"Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chogyam Trungpa" by Jeremy Hayward, whose story about the water into wine incident opened this thread,
"Dragon Thunder: My Life with Chogyam Trungpa" by Diana J. Mukpo, his wife,
"The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant" by John Riley Perks, his "butler" for 7 years,
and this:
"Recalling Chogyam Trungpa" edited by Fabrice Midal
while not a memoir, is a good collection of essays about him by many well-known and interesting people.
To get a feeling for his teaching you could try these:
http://www.shambhala.com/the-profound-t ... harma.html
Why not have a look and see what you think?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Well if religion offers meaning and that transforms a person, then it is fair to say their practice of the religion transformed them. That shows that what you said below is false and in fact religion can transform people.boda wrote:Well what? All sorts of things change people, including meaning.Mkoll wrote:Well, boda?Mkoll wrote: And what if finding meaning transforms someone?
The Eightfold Path may indeed lead people to the cessation of suffering. That is certainly a meaningful belief to hold.
boda wrote:Religion does not transform people. It merely offers meaning.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Easy. I didn't judge, i asked. And that is why I asked: for not to do prejudging.boda wrote:Indeed I have made no comment about whether he was a good teacher or bad. So not only are you judging me, you are prejudging me, which is far worse. How do you explain this?So now please say it clearly: you mean, CTR can not have been a good teacher, because he was taking alcohol and ... (I don't know what else) ?
Now you see clearly, what snares are hidden in language and perception. That's why we communicate - to clear missunderstandings. While working on that, we produce more and more missunderstandings. Strange world.
This could be or could be not. Who knows it exactly?boda wrote:* * WANTING * * to believe, perhaps wanting too desperately, is indeed what the topic is all about.
From your distance you have only your own mind to judge it. That's why such an assumption reveals more about your own mind than about the minds of CTR's deciples. I'm sorry.
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Apropos of Chogyam Trungpa and belief, did he believe? did he have faith?
According to the 4NTs, the Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of suffering. CT clearly ignored many of even the basics of the Eightfold Path. He certainly knew the basics. Can we conclude that did not believe the Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of suffering? The only other explanation would seem to be that he simply could not help himself. And if he could not help himself... how could he possibly help others???
Perhaps students who are capable of helping themselves, help themselves.
According to the 4NTs, the Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of suffering. CT clearly ignored many of even the basics of the Eightfold Path. He certainly knew the basics. Can we conclude that did not believe the Eightfold Path leads to the cessation of suffering? The only other explanation would seem to be that he simply could not help himself. And if he could not help himself... how could he possibly help others???
Perhaps students who are capable of helping themselves, help themselves.
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
The Art of trolling
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces,"
Of course there is such a consensus — Buddhadharma, practiced properly, leads to the reduction and elimination of afflictions which cause birth in samsara, i.e. freedom.
In Mahāyāna, one can also traverse the path to omniscience.
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
Yes, most definitely.boda wrote:
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
So if we asked various Buddhist practitioners what omniscience was, or what enlightenment was, they would all same the same thing. Hmmm... !Malcolm wrote:boda wrote: In my experience there is not even a consensus on what "the Buddhist Dharma produces,"
Of course there is such a consensus — Buddhadharma, practiced properly, leads to the reduction and elimination of afflictions which cause birth in samsara, i.e. freedom.
In Mahāyāna, one can also traverse the path to omniscience.
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
How do you know? Please explain yourself, if, you can.Malcolm wrote:Yes, most definitely.boda wrote:
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
I know because I know many of his students. For them, his womanizing and drinking helped them go beyond the limitations of spiritual materialism and concretely understand the meaning of Dharma. His students are some of the best Dharma practitioners there are in Tibetan Buddhism. A great many of them have a concrete understanding of Dzogchen and Mahamudra.boda wrote:How do you know? Please explain yourself, if, you can.Malcolm wrote:Yes, most definitely.boda wrote:
What do you mean in saying that Trungpa "uses the methods he does"? Are you suggesting that his drinking and womanizing was a method in his teaching?
The quality of a tree should be known by its fruit, not buy the appearance of its bark.
M
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
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Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.
~ Tilopa
~ Tilopa
Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)
You're answering a different question, Malcolm, which is your prerogative.
I asked how you knew that it was a "teaching method." If you know what a teaching method is, and you know that Chogyam Trungpa used alcoholism and womanizing as a teaching method, explain how you know this. Or you can answer a different question if that's easier for you.
I asked how you knew that it was a "teaching method." If you know what a teaching method is, and you know that Chogyam Trungpa used alcoholism and womanizing as a teaching method, explain how you know this. Or you can answer a different question if that's easier for you.