Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Lindama » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:22 am

dear greentara,
Do you believe any of this quote that you have provided? If so, please speak from your experience.

I don't think for a moment that this quote describes a woman's experience ... even for those with "a prologed pubescent drive to attract a mate or keep a mate". Most women are aware under the facade, and deeply resent it. For myself, I could not believe the lie.

This quote is no more than gossip about women. Women need to believe in themselves, not be feed this which seduces them into weakness thinking that atleast we are all the same. no!

Furthermore, it just didn't notice that women are naturally nurturing for others beyond themselves, just like any bodhisattva. Such a cynical view of women!
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby reddust » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:25 am

greentara wrote:"The truth is alot of us cannot imagine life without a relationship, no matter how bad, how draining, how difficult or incompatible it may be.
We seem to be in a prologed pubescent drive to attract a mate" or keep a mate.
In addition many women well into middleage are still " Clattering around in tight clothes and high heels, bordering on the ridiculous. My friends and peers lived to attract, I spend my time, money and effort worried about how I looked and how others were reacting to me"
You'll even find people eighty plus looking for romance and marriage so maybe you can be a teenager for the rest of your life. Pehaps its a way of living the Hollywood dream.
Though one day you can wake up and ask is this it? What am I doing and why am I here?

Jeanette O'shea, journalist


I think we as humans need healthy relationships. We are not lone wolves. I developed good relationships with others when I learned how to get along with myself. I do think our modern society hypersexualizes us from birth so we cannot form healthy bonds, good relationships with self and our other relationships. We have been conditioned to be casual consumers, throw away relationships when they become a challenge. Screw hollywood, it is overwhelmingly boring! I agree it is time for us to wake up :thumbsup: Stupid hypersexed 70 year old freaks like jane fonda and cher…jeeze…let's sell some more plastic surgery and stupid clothing! I won't go into Disney and their princes syndrome (Miley Cyrus types) or the Kardashin type reality freaks :rolleye:
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby plwk » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:13 am

We are not lone wolves.

Image
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

Invictus
With I, me & myself and the cat, who's 'lone'? :mrgreen:
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby greentara » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:34 am

reddust, Wolves are usually pack animals, live in family units and hunt in a group - not too different to their human counterparts.
Lindama, Do I agree with O'shea? I do, she's quite insightful and this was written before she became a renunciate and tossed in her former life to find something far more meaningful.
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Lindama » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:38 am

so, becoming a renunciate is the resolution? O'Shea's quote creates such a polarity, that is what I was feeling. I can't agree with her categorization of women.
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:51 am

In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband: (i) by being courteous to her, (ii) by not despising he "The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five w (i) she performs her duties well, (ii) she is hospitable "In these five ways does the wife show her compassion to her husband who ministers to her as the West

Advice to laity sutta (Digha Nikaya)


(EDIT) SORRY my phone wont copy the whole quote

Here is a link to read the rest
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby gloriasteinem » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:31 pm

red, this reminds me of the 'red dragon in the sky' (Bible, Revalations). i'm interested who he thinks he is better from, seems like the sexual life is not going on well, little soviet morrons
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:01 am

Ayu wrote:
futerko wrote:
greentara wrote:Here's one of my favorite Buffett quotes: "It's kind of ... "What's the secret of a great marriage? It's not looks, nor intelligence, nor money -- it's low expectations."
There's alot of truth to the above quote.


:rolling:


Nothing to laugh about. :smile: It's absolutely true.


I agree, this is quite true!

I think many marriages end due to both partners projecting an image of a Perfect Partner on the other over time, then being disappointment with the results!

In that sense, a marriage "with bodhicitta", if there is such a thing, is one where these projections are absent, and there is a lack of judgement, and a lack of conditions for love, in short - utter acceptance of your family..the same could go for any personal relationship.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby reddust » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:36 am

What I love about being married is caring for someone and having someone care for me. It is so nice to be with someone who is nice to himself and to me and I can return that. We have our grumpy times but we alway makeup before we go to sleep for the night. Makes me tear up writing about this, that's how important it is to me.
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:55 am

Just read this:
Once, Rinpoche was teaching about developing patience; at that time, my children were infants. My wife was also at the event and our marriage was new, we had so many difficulties.

When Rinpoche opened the Q&A session, I was comfortable enough to ask him this: “Look, I don’t know if you are married and I don’t know if you have children, however, to be patient with small boys and a wife is not easy. It is very hard.”

Then he answered, stroking his beard: “However, it is possible.”

http://lordofthedance.chagdud.org/marriage/
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:29 am

A wife and kids is the supreme austerity;)*

:namaste:

*Replace sex of spouse as needed.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Tenzin & Söpa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:06 pm

I respect your feelings and appreciate you took the time to share them. However, like Mandala, I disagree with your generalisation that marriage is an integral part of our lives. I'm inclined to think a life spent without sharing compassion, friendship and kindness would be a sad life to live, indeed. But I can't see how marriage (and having children) is supposed to be the cornerstone of anyone's existence.

Mandala said:
mandala wrote:marriage itself is fairly irrelevant in Buddhism.


If anything, personally I find marriage to be an obstacle to dharma practice, because it is fertile soil for attachment (to people/things neither of which will last forever), jealousy, and all those expectations and delusions that (from a Buddhist point of view, that is), bind us in samsara.

At some point you said:
reddust wrote:Our attachment to worldly matters always results in suffering.


But then in another post you said:
reddust wrote:What I love about being married is caring for someone and having someone care for me. It is so nice to be with someone who is nice to himself and to me and I can return that.


I do not mean to sound indelicate in saying this, so please accept this for what it is, just a different point of view: isn't the above an example of wordly attachment? If I understand correctly what you meant, the cornerstone of your happiness in life is this special relationship you share with your partner. But one day, due to old age or sickness, you won't be able to care for him, or him for you. And sooner or later one of you will die and leave the other alone. I have a sincere question to ask (you don't have to if you don't feel like it, of course): how can you find genuine happiness in this?

Thank you
ཁོང་ཁྲོ་སློང་མཁན་མེད་ན། བཟོད་པ་སུ་ལ་སྒོམ།

When there is no one to provoke anger, how shall we practice patience?
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:21 pm

You think happiness has to be unchanging and permanent or it's inauthentic ?.



Btw Are you two people ?
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Tenzin & Söpa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:58 pm

Simon E. wrote:You think happiness has to be unchanging and permanent or it's inauthentic ?

Short answer? Yes.

Slightly longer answer: it's not just the fact that this kind of happiness itself is ephemeral, it's the fact that this happiness doesn't really exist per se, because its existence is based on a series of assumptions (that my spouse will love me forever/will find me attractive forever/will be faithful to me forever/will be willing to sacrifice her or his life for her or his family forever/will always look after me/will always respect me etc etc) that are rather capricious themselves... Remove one, and the whole castle of your happiness collapses. How can this be real happiness?


PS
Simon E. wrote:Btw Are you two people ?

Tenzin here. Söpa is more of a passive auditor.
ཁོང་ཁྲོ་སློང་མཁན་མེད་ན། བཟོད་པ་སུ་ལ་སྒོམ།

When there is no one to provoke anger, how shall we practice patience?
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:06 pm

With whom you share an affinity ?
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:27 pm

Tenzin & Söpa wrote:
Simon E. wrote:You think happiness has to be unchanging and permanent or it's inauthentic ?

Short answer? Yes.

Slightly longer answer: it's not just the fact that this kind of happiness itself is ephemeral, it's the fact that this happiness doesn't really exist per se, because its existence is based on a series of assumptions (that my spouse will love me forever/will find me attractive forever/will be faithful to me forever/will be willing to sacrifice her or his life for her or his family forever/will always look after me/will always respect me etc etc) that are rather capricious themselves... Remove one, and the whole castle of your happiness collapses. How can this be real happiness?


PS
Simon E. wrote:Btw Are you two people ?

Tenzin here. Söpa is more of a passive auditor.


All samsaric happiness is ephemeral, I could take your argument and make it a case for not having any human relationships at all, even not having pets (*cough* :D ) and plenty do.

ts existence is based on a series of assumptions (that my spouse will love me forever/will find me attractive forever/will be faithful to me forever/will be willing to sacrifice her or his life for her or his family forever/will always look after me/will always respect me etc etc) that are rather capricious themselves... Remove one, and the whole castle of your happiness collapses. How can this be real happiness?


The point is to lose those assumptions, and the make relationship about something beyond those assumptions. You are talking about the bit of relationship where we expect something in return..that is the most useless bit, and IME that is the bit to leave behind as much as possible. Take a hard look at your argument, you could use it as a Buddhist-style cop out for not doing anything at all, not just marriage. I'm not saying there's no truth there, in the end we have to let our families go..but your argument only works as a general statement for adopting the lifestyle of a renunciate..and not much else.

As a good example, in a relationship, one day one partner or the other will watch their spouse die, and hopefully, in a Buddhist context - that will be practice, and a fairly deep one. Learning to let people go, while still doing what you can for them - especially as they die or face extreme hardship, that's practice.

That is not to say I think marriage is for everyone, or should be important to everyone, I don't think that at all of course...I don't think that the path of outer renunciation is for all of us either though.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Tenzin & Söpa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:31 pm

Simon E. wrote:With whom you share an affinity ?


What do you mean by "affinity"?
ཁོང་ཁྲོ་སློང་མཁན་མེད་ན། བཟོད་པ་སུ་ལ་སྒོམ།

When there is no one to provoke anger, how shall we practice patience?
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Tenzin & Söpa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:39 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:All samsaric happiness is ephemeral, I could take your argument and make it a case for not having any human relationships at all, and plenty do.


Not having any human relationships at all is a sign of fear. Fear is just another form of attachment - in negative, if you wish.

The way I understand Buddhism, it shows you that wisdom is typically a middle path. Extremes are never the answer.
ཁོང་ཁྲོ་སློང་མཁན་མེད་ན། བཟོད་པ་སུ་ལ་སྒོམ།

When there is no one to provoke anger, how shall we practice patience?
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:52 pm

Tenzin & Söpa wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:All samsaric happiness is ephemeral, I could take your argument and make it a case for not having any human relationships at all, and plenty do.


Not having any human relationships at all is a sign of fear. Fear is just another form of attachment - in negative, if you wish.

The way I understand Buddhism, it shows you that wisdom is typically a middle path. Extremes are never the answer.

Steering clear of relationships because they are of necessity ephemeral seems to me extreme.
Noone who has a practice of meditation goes into a committed relationship without the knowledge that in one way or another it will result in pain. Sooner or later.
But it will also result in insights and warmth and mutual support...they are the two sides of one coin.
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Re: Marriage – a Dhamma point of view

Postby reddust » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:52 pm

To answer your question, proper relationships per prajna is all of my practice in a nutshell.
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