Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:19 pm

Stewart wrote:
The fact of the matter is that the whole thing backfired on Shamar big time, hardly any Kagyu, or other lineages for that matter, have backed Trinlay Thaye, at best they pay him basic respect, but in reality it's always Karmapa OTD they meet publically. So, sadly, you have begun to rely on slander and conspiracy theory to give them a foot hold.



Hi Stewart:

This not a fair assessment of the situation.

The "Shamar" candidate was first recognize by Chogye Trichen Rinpoche, who many assert was the most realized Tibetan teacher in a century. Trinley Thaye was granted the entire sgyud sde kun 'dus by the senior Luding Khenpo in California in a private teaching that lasted for some months.

This is not the first time in history there has been more than one recognized Karmapa. In the end, it just becomes a money and power game. That, sadly, is what the tulku system has largely degenerated into, in my opinion.

The fact that Orgyen Thaye Dorje is accorded "more" respect has more to do with HHDL's patronage than anything else, as far as I can discern. He has also been something of a hostage to the Ganden Podrang, however, and given the history between the Karmapas and the Ganden Phodrang, I can see why this makes many Karma Kagyus very uncomfortable.

The fact remains that the Karma Kagyu school suffered a blow to their reputation because of the controversy. You cannot blame one side more than the other, unless you are a partisan.

As someone with virtually no connection to Karma Kagyu, who has no stake in the game on any side, I think the whole affair is a sad mess and has weakened the Karma Kagyu school considerably.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:29 pm

Stewart wrote:This contempt has filtered through from above to students like yourself and Greg, who make statements based on hearsay and slander they have heard second hand, see Greg’s shocking and unsympathetic statement in October about Akong Rinpoche’s death, don’t get me wrong,. He apologised… after about a week or so, and after several people pointed out how out of order it was, and I daresay a warning from a mod, but it’s just symptomatic of the whole attitude underlying your motivation.
I recommend you stop carrying albatrosses. I neither knew (nor would I give a damn) about which side of the Karmapa fence Akong Rinpoche sat on. I made a comment about the unavoidability and inevitability of karmic outcomes. It's a basic and common Buddhist teaching. Look it up if you wish.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Stewart wrote:
The fact of the matter is that the whole thing backfired on Shamar big time, hardly any Kagyu, or other lineages for that matter, have backed Trinlay Thaye, at best they pay him basic respect, but in reality it's always Karmapa OTD they meet publically. So, sadly, you have begun to rely on slander and conspiracy theory to give them a foot hold.



Hi Stewart:

This not a fair assessment of the situation.

The "Shamar" candidate was first recognize by Chogye Trichen Rinpoche, who many assert was the most realized Tibetan teacher in a century. Trinley Thaye was granted the entire sgyud sde kun 'dus by the senior Luding Khenpo in California in a private teaching that lasted for some months.

This is not the first time in history there has been more than one recognized Karmapa. In the end, it just becomes a money and power game. That, sadly, is what the tulku system has largely degenerated into, in my opinion.

The fact that Orgyen Thaye Dorje is accorded "more" respect has more to do with HHDL's patronage than anything else, as far as I can discern. He has also been something of a hostage to the Ganden Podrang, however, and given the history between the Karmapas and the Ganden Phodrang, I can see why this makes many Karma Kagyus very uncomfortable.

The fact remains that the Karma Kagyu school suffered a blow to their reputation because of the controversy. You cannot blame one side more than the other, unless you are a partisan.

As someone with virtually no connection to Karma Kagyu, who has no stake in the game on any side, I think the whole affair is a sad mess and has weakened the Karma Kagyu school considerably.



Yes, I agree, it's a mess....but I beleive that Shamar first endorsed OTD, before changing his mind... also for a long time, Shamar would not name Chogye Trichen Rinpoche as his source of support, he heavily hinted at it, but when Chogye Trichen Rinpoche was asked directly, he seemingly denied he had advised Shamar.

Sakya Trizin has also gave Karmapa OTD several important transmissions, so I think the Sakyapas, perhaps wisely, have remained neutral.

Personally, I have moved away from this, I still hold my Kagyu masters in high regard, but I have shifed my focus on practice, and I feel free of it.

If I am completely honest, this resurfaced for me recently upon Akong Rinpoche's death, I knew him very well, for many years, and was shocked...so i reacted badly to the negative comments by various Shamar students. My bad.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:40 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Stewart wrote:This contempt has filtered through from above to students like yourself and Greg, who make statements based on hearsay and slander they have heard second hand, see Greg’s shocking and unsympathetic statement in October about Akong Rinpoche’s death, don’t get me wrong,. He apologised… after about a week or so, and after several people pointed out how out of order it was, and I daresay a warning from a mod, but it’s just symptomatic of the whole attitude underlying your motivation.
I recommend you stop carrying albatrosses.


Greg,

Mentioning something that happened in the past is hardly 'carrying an albatross', it is in context to my point.

I can see why you would want it forgotten though, it was embarrassing for you.

S
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:51 pm

Stewart wrote:Greg,

Mentioning something that happened in the past is hardly 'carrying an albatross', it is in context to my point.

I can see why you would want it forgotten though, it was embarrassing for you.

S
Not in the slightest bit embarassing. And the point you brought up was completely out of context. Like COMPLETELY! The thread is about the relationship between Ole and Trungpa Rinpoche, it's not about you (and other individuals) view on the Karmapa issue (discussion of which is against the ToS).
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:00 pm

I neither knew (nor would I give a damn) about which side of the Karmapa fence Akong Rinpoche sat on.


Then you are either lying or living in a bubble, AR is one of the major players in this whole drama, he discovered Karmapa OTD on Situ Rinpoche’s behalf, and hence has been a target for many years for Shamar and his students. Sorry, but I don't believe you didn't know this.

I made a comment about the unavoidability and inevitability of karmic outcomes.


No, you made a flippant comment about the 'wheel of sharp weapons' were always gonna get ya' ....2 days after Akong Rinpoche was stabbed to death...in a thread where his students and sympathisers where discussing it...please don't further your dishonestly by 1; Denying you knew this or 2: Making out it wasn't a disrespectful tone.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:16 pm

Stewart wrote:Then you are either lying or living in a bubble, AR is one of the major players in this whole drama, he discovered Karmapa OTD on Situ Rinpoche’s behalf, and hence has been a target for many years for Shamar and his students. Sorry, but I don't believe you didn't know this.
It is irrelevant what you believe or not. I know what I do, and do not, know. Has it ever occurred to you that I don't give a damn about the whole Karmapa issue? That my only concern is to receive valid teachings and practices? That I couldn't give a toss about Tibetan (religious) political infighting?
No, you made a flippant comment about the 'wheel of sharp weapons' were always gonna get ya' ....2 days after Akong Rinpoche was stabbed to death...in a thread where his students and sympathisers where discussing it...please don't further your dishonestly by 1; Denying you knew this or 2: Making out it wasn't a disrespectful tone.
It is true that some people viewed it as disrespectful and flippant, and that is why I apologised. Not because I was embarrassed. Not because I considered what I wrote as being invalid. Not because (you believe) that I would have drawn a formal warning.

And just so you know: I abhor lying. That's why I get into trouble so often. ;)
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:16 pm

Stewart wrote:I'm not pretending anything, I'm just pointing out that you’re pedalling out all the usual crap that has been done to death over the years, and I really don't care about it anymore.


Stewart, instead of accusing me of peddling out crap and saying that I engage in conspiracy theories I would prefer that you point out any factual inconsistencies in what I write.

It's fine that you don't care about this issue as you have said. I do care and I also care about the incorrect information that is circling around it.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:23 pm

Fair enough, good luck.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Jikan » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:47 pm

Friendly reminder before this discussion gets out of hand:

viewtopic.php?f=109&t=15421

Thank you
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:08 pm

Stewart wrote:
Yes, I agree, it's a mess....but I beleive that Shamar first endorsed OTD, before changing his mind... also for a long time, Shamar would not name Chogye Trichen Rinpoche as his source of support, he heavily hinted at it, but when Chogye Trichen Rinpoche was asked directly, he seemingly denied he had advised Shamar.


I know for a fact that Chogye Trichen was instrumental in KTT's recognition.

Sakya Trizin has also gave Karmapa OTD several important transmissions, so I think the Sakyapas, perhaps wisely, have remained neutral.


We don't have a stake in the game. This basically a power struggle between the Gelugs and conservative Karma Kagyus that has been going on since the war between the King of Tsang and the Ganden Phodrang in the 17th century. All of this politicking comes from that time.

[qupte]
If I am completely honest, this resurfaced for me recently upon Akong Rinpoche's death, I knew him very well, for many years, and was shocked...so i reacted badly to the negative comments by various Shamar students. My bad.[/quote]

It is not your bad at all. This a part of your life and history. It is just good to recognize that it is very worldly, on both sides. If you are a Karma Kagyu however, you have to make a decision who is going to be your leader.

But frankly, all this makes me understand that the family lineage holder model has certain strengths that the other two models, i.e. Tulku succession, or nominated abbotships, as in the throne of Ganden, somewhat lack. While all are subject to manipulation, the family lineage thing has more resistance to external manipulation, at minimum. On the other hand, the Gelug model is appealing too because the head of the Gelug school is nominated on the basis of their scholarship and practice rather then money and power. So, of the three, I think the Tulku system is the weakest. However, it has the most appeal because it allows cults of personality to extend through time in an unprecedented way.
M
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:It is not your bad at all. This a part of your life and history. It is just good to recognize that it is very worldly, on both sides. If you are a Karma Kagyu however, you have to make a decision who is going to be your leader.

But frankly, all this makes me understand that the family lineage holder model has certain strengths that the other two models, i.e. Tulku succession, or nominated abbotships, as in the throne of Ganden, somewhat lack. While all are subject to manipulation, the family lineage thing has more resistance to external manipulation, at minimum. On the other hand, the Gelug model is appealing too because the head of the Gelug school is nominated on the basis of their scholarship and practice rather then money and power. So, of the three, I think the Tulku system is the weakest. However, it has the most appeal because it allows cults of personality to extend through time in an unprecedented way.
M


But what if the Tulku system, in at least a given case, were real?

I'm just sayin'.....

:stirthepot:

I'm in general agreement, before everyone jumps all over me, that the Tulku system is, in it's current manifestation, quite questionable. I think the Family Lineage method has it's attractions, but also it's potential pitfalls as well. If I am honest, in general I believe in meritocracy. Geluk model is admirable, in this instance. But I think we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater........nor can we, quite frankly.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:02 pm

I know for a fact that Chogye Trichen was instrumental in KTT's recognition.


Fine, can't argue with that...but from my pov, I have trust in Situ Rinpoche, I have received teachings, empowerments and advice from him over the years...I believe him to be an awakened master...but I can accept others have different opinions, that's okay. I have also received the same from Karmapa OTD, again he impressed me, but that's just my personal experience.

We don't have a stake in the game. This basically a power struggle between the Gelugs and conservative Karma Kagyus that has been going on since the war between the King of Tsang and the Ganden Phodrang in the 17th century. All of this politicking comes from that time.


Again, I accept this, and truth be told, the whole Karmapa situation doesn't concern me, it does hurt though when some of my teachers are slandered, especially in light of Akong Rinpoche's death. It's a personal thing really, my problem.

But frankly, all this makes me understand that the family lineage holder model has certain strengths that the other two models, i.e. Tulku succession, or nominated abbotships....


Well, as you know, my practice has taken a new direction over the past few years, two of my main teachers are Kagyu Tulkus, Karma and Drukpa, but my interest lies in their family Dzogchen Lineage, although they are associaed with Karmapa OTD, neither of them make a big deal about it, preferring to concentrate on giving Direct Introduction and teaching Dzogchen to those interested. Also ChNN has been instrumental in my change of direction and confidence in it, but I don't have to explain that to you :smile:
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby conebeckham » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:16 pm

I'm a Kagyupa, and I firmly support OTD. But you all knew this! :smile:

At the same time, I'm not terribly interested in proving anything with regard to this issue. Everyone can think what they want, of course. For me, all of this is Institutional Samsara, and separate from the practice and teaching of Dharma, to a degree. Of course, this is Vajrayana Buddhism, and the identity of the Guru is an important factor in practice. For Karma Kagyupas, who basically invented the Tulku System :tongue: , I think it's a bigger issue if you are invested in the Institutional system, obviously. From the POV of practice, it comes down to who provides the kernel, the teaching that opens the door.

I personally am reconciled to the whole thing, having no real investment in the Institution. But it's a personal, individual thing.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:42 pm

Stewart wrote:
I know for a fact that Chogye Trichen was instrumental in KTT's recognition.

Fine, can't argue with that...but from my pov, I have trust in Situ Rinpoche, I have received teachings, empowerments and advice from him over the years...I believe him to be an awakened master...but I can accept others have different opinions, that's okay. I have also received the same from Karmapa OTD, again he impressed me, but that's just my personal experience.


Yes, of course, this all goes without saying.




We don't have a stake in the game. This basically a power struggle between the Gelugs and conservative Karma Kagyus that has been going on since the war between the King of Tsang and the Ganden Phodrang in the 17th century. All of this politicking comes from that time.


Again, I accept this, and truth be told, the whole Karmapa situation doesn't concern me, it does hurt though when some of my teachers are slandered, especially in light of Akong Rinpoche's death. It's a personal thing really, my problem.


It is fine to want to defend your guru's reputation. You should never feel sorry about that. The situation with the Karmapas is difficult, and it is very similar to the situation with Gyalpo Shugden in Gelug. In the end, only oneself can be the judge of which perspective is right and which is wrong.

I personally generally go along with HHDL's point of view on both these matters, as does HHST, but I know there are others who disagree with him and feel that their own reasons are equally valid.

If there is a lesson to be learned, we who follow these lineages in Western dharma centers need to cautious about getting mixed up in lineage politics we do not really understand.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby theanarchist » Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:The fact remains that the Karma Kagyu school suffered a blow to their reputation because of the controversy. You cannot blame one side more than the other, unless you are a partisan.



I guess not so much by the fact that two parties have two candidates, but how this was dealt with.

Anyway, with Nydahl, does anyone know if he was like what people witnessed and reported about him "from the beginning" or did his behaviour significantly change during the time where he was not "under the thumb" of the 16th Karmapa anymore due to his early death.

It seems that noone from the Thaye Dorje fraction is very eager to put a leash on him because he has the largest and richest crowd of Thaye Dorje devotees. With big religious (buddhist and non buddhist) organisations it seems to be exactly like with those large banks. Too big to fail.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:20 pm

theanarchist wrote:I guess not so much by the fact that two parties have two candidates, but how this was dealt with.

Anyway, with Nydahl, does anyone know if he was like what people witnessed and reported about him "from the beginning" or did his behaviour significantly change during the time where he was not "under the thumb" of the 16th Karmapa anymore due to his early death.

It seems that noone from the Thaye Dorje fraction is very eager to put a leash on him because he has the largest and richest crowd of Thaye Dorje devotees. With big religious (buddhist and non buddhist) organisations it seems to be exactly like with those large banks. Too big to fail.
One opinion that I have heard personally, is that he is not put on a "short leash" because Nydahl has brought the Dharma to more people than the majority of "rubber stamped" lama out there. Now whether you agree (or not) with how he presents the Dharma, or the apparent laxity of the practice regimen (though I have to admit I have met a hell of a lot of people that have completed traditional ngondro through Diamond Way, which is quite an achievement, as far as I am concerned) is a different story. Personally he doesn't rock my boat, but that doesn't mean I have to blind myself to all the extraordinarily positive work that he has done spreading the Dharma.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:14 pm

theanarchist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The fact remains that the Karma Kagyu school suffered a blow to their reputation because of the controversy. You cannot blame one side more than the other, unless you are a partisan.



I guess not so much by the fact that two parties have two candidates, but how this was dealt with.

Anyway, with Nydahl, does anyone know if he was like what people witnessed and reported about him "from the beginning" or did his behaviour significantly change during the time where he was not "under the thumb" of the 16th Karmapa anymore due to his early death.

It seems that noone from the Thaye Dorje fraction is very eager to put a leash on him because he has the largest and richest crowd of Thaye Dorje devotees. With big religious (buddhist and non buddhist) organisations it seems to be exactly like with those large banks. Too big to fail.


I don't what you mean about him being like that "from the beginning". He has always being openly outspoken against Islam and he has always been a person to speak his mind even if his opinion is unpopular.

Personally, I do not like this tendency on Dharma Wheel where there seems to be a free for all in terms of slandering Ole Nydahl. It seems to be bad etiquette on here to slander someones teacher, but it does not seem to apply to Lama Ole Nydahl.

I first attended a talk by him in 2007. I was put off by his style. However in 2011 I wanted to learn Phowa and the only course I could find was the one offered by Ole in the europe center in the most southern germany. I joined despite my resistance to the lama giving the teaching. Through that practice I got inner and outer signs of succes. And all the 4000 people who were at the course got at least the outer sign. The sky was full of Rainbows after the course. I also got the strongest direct experience of the nature of the mind that had in my life and also so far, despite being incredibly closed-minded and non-devoted. The people I met down there where generally very happy, free spirited and compassionate. Some people also asked him openly about Trungpa and Tai Situ, and he did not speak about them disrespectfully whatsoever.

I hitched a ride back to Denmark with a couple from Ukraine where were married down there and devoted students of Lama Ole. They are were some of the nicest, most compassionate and wisest people that I have met. Since then I have met many people from Diamondway buddhism who from their manner and presence, demonstrate signs of succes of Dharma practice.

Since then, although I have only attended a few talks by him, he has said many things that have later turned out to be true. Fx, I attended a talk by him in Copenhagen when our present goverment here in Denmark had just been elected. Someone asked him about our new goverment and he said quite clearly that it would a complete mess and utter failure. I did not feel this was fair as it was too soon to make such a judgement about it. However I can clearly say now a some years later that in my opinion and in the opinion of the vast majority of the Danish people, he was completely right. I have since then, even from from my limited interaction with him experienced quite a lot of things that would suggests to me that he is a very accomplished meditation master.

Some people seem to think that he is some run away teacher. It is completely untrue. He and Hannah were in very close touch with the 16th Karmapa through tons of letters(where they asked him about everything) and where close by his side whenever he travelled to the West.

Ole and Hannah were taught and empowered by the highest kagyu lamas and yogins of that time which includes the 16th Karmapa, Kalu Rinpoche, Sharmapa, Lopøn Tsetju Rinpotje and Tai Situ. He was ordered by the Karmapa to establish Karma Kagyu centers in the West and he has done that incredibly succesfully. I have no doubt that many individuals have achieved liberation through this acitvity and many will in the future. Especially the 75.000 people whom he has transmitted phowa to.

By backing the Sharmapa in the 17th karmapa dispute, he has not broken with Karma Kagyu tradition. He has kept it.

It's okay that you disagree with him and don't like his style, but frankly he has been more succesfull in bringing the vajrayana to the West than all the efforts of all the people on this board put together. He has transmitted mahamudra to many many thousands of people and tons of people having experienced great happiness and meaning through that.

It's okay not to want to follow him in any way, but I do not feel the slander is in order.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Wayfarer » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:16 pm

I've seen Ole Nydahl a few times over the years, the last time probably in the early 2000's. He always seemed OK to me, although since then I became a bit disillusioned over the dispute about the succession of the 17th Karmapa (which is excellently documented, by the way, in The Dance of 17 Lives by Mick Brown), so I doubt I would go to one of his teaching sessions again. But so what? I don't see anything wicked or dangerous about the man, he seems quite authentic. But I am not particularly drawn to Tibetan Buddhism in general, so I am not a likely candidate to become a student of that school. But I don't agree with people lining up to criticize him. If you don't like a particular teacher, just pick one you do!
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby smcj » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:44 pm

theanarchist wrote:Anyway, with Nydahl, does anyone know if he was like what people witnessed and reported about him "from the beginning" or did his behaviour significantly change during the time where he was not "under the thumb" of the 16th Karmapa anymore due to his early death.

I haven't had any contact with him in quite a few years, but what I've heard seems in keeping with the Ole I knew back in the '70s. But of course Islam and the Karmapa succession were not issues back then.
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