Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby smcj » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:56 pm

theanarchist wrote:I have seen an interview on video where Mr. Nydahl uttered some very unbodhicitta stuff in a very emotional way about people he claimed he never ever wanted to see again. He said it in a way that he really meant it. Which is clearly breaking the bodhisattva vow.

On a completely legalistic note, there are actually 2 lineages of the bodhicitta vow. The first has dozens of root, branch, and secondary vows that are highly articulated. The second is much simpler, something to the effect of "I aspire to enlightenment of all sentient beings." Ole gives only the second type. I do not think he ever accepted the first one. He doesn't like rules. I remember him saying, "You don't want to put your bodhicitta in a box." So I don't think he even has that specific bodhicitta vow that you are talking about.

But that's just my guess, and a very legalistic take on the issue.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby theanarchist » Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:15 pm

smcj wrote:I remember him saying, "You don't want to put your bodhicitta in a box." So I don't think he even has that specific bodhicitta vow that you are talking about.

But that's just my guess, and a very legalistic take on the issue.



As I see it, never ever wanting to see someone again also means not wanting to engage in helping this person to attain enlightenement. Because helping someone attain enlightenment would very likely mean seeing him or her again.

Bodhisattva vow always means not picking and choosing to help oneś favourite beings to attain enlightenment and abandoning the "unpleasant" ones.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby kirtu » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:56 pm

theanarchist wrote:
smcj wrote:I remember him saying, "You don't want to put your bodhicitta in a box." So I don't think he even has that specific bodhicitta vow that you are talking about.

But that's just my guess, and a very legalistic take on the issue.



As I see it, never ever wanting to see someone again also means not wanting to engage in helping this person to attain enlightenement. Because helping someone attain enlightenment would very likely mean seeing him or her again.

Bodhisattva vow always means not picking and choosing to help oneś favourite beings to attain enlightenment and abandoning the "unpleasant" ones.


There are people and situations that we can't deal with effectively. In some people's lives there are people who really want to harm them. If there are people like that in your life then you should avoid them if you can't improve the situation. This doesn't mean that you abandon them.

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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby theanarchist » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:33 pm

kirtu wrote:
There are people and situations that we can't deal with effectively. In some people's lives there are people who really want to harm them. If there are people like that in your life then you should avoid them if you can't improve the situation.t



Yeah, but that's meant to be a forever state. I kicked a relative out of my life for this kind of reason. Plus, if decisions like that are made in an emotional state it has nothing do with bodhicitta. With bodhicitta one might make such a decision, but it won't be because of personal emotional pissed off-ness but just to prevent further harm for this other being and the whole situation.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:00 pm

theanarchist wrote:
smcj wrote:I remember him saying, "You don't want to put your bodhicitta in a box." So I don't think he even has that specific bodhicitta vow that you are talking about.

But that's just my guess, and a very legalistic take on the issue.



As I see it, never ever wanting to see someone again also means not wanting to engage in helping this person to attain enlightenement. Because helping someone attain enlightenment would very likely mean seeing him or her again.

Bodhisattva vow always means not picking and choosing to help oneś favourite beings to attain enlightenment and abandoning the "unpleasant" ones.


It simply means never abandoning the wish to help them achieve awakening. Bodhisattva conduct also means avoiding the familiar company of the childish, the harmful and so on, people you can never help.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby smcj » Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:35 pm

I kicked a relative out of my life for this kind of reason.

That in and of itself is not contrary to bodhicitta or Dharma. These days in the lexicon of recovery the term "tough love" is used. Giving someone the boot may be exactly what they need. In Vajrayana they call it "wrathful compassion". There is an extensive list of protector meditations that cultivate it.
Plus, if decisions like that are made in an emotional state it has nothing do with bodhicitta.

Well yes, whether or not it is virtuous does depend on one's skill and motivation. However to an outside observer it can be difficult to tell the difference.
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Re: Ole Nydahl and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:18 am

Maybe it helps to understand that it is not the person per se that gets reborn in the next life. Philosophically speaking, the person is among others also constituted by some "outer" factors like the date of birth, the gender, height, intelligence, experiences, childhood memories, abilities and knowledge to name but a few. If somebody dies and gets reborn these outer factors get (mostly) extinguished and in that very sense the one who gets reborn is not the same person anymore.

When you say you never ever want to see a certain person again there is not necessarily a contradiction with the Bodhicitta vow, because a couple of rebirths later the individual in question is not the same person anymore. In other words it can also mean that before you'll be able to help a certain individual, he or she will have to become an entirely different person.

I'm of course not claiming to know that this is what Ole Nydahl meant, of course I don't know what he meant, I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily have to mean that he broke his Bodhisattva vows.
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Re: Ole Nydahl and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby theanarchist » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:05 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
I'm of course not claiming to know that this is what Ole Nydahl meant, of course I don't know what he meant, I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily have to mean that he broke his Bodhisattva vows.



Of course noone can know what his true intention was behind this statement.

I personally find it pretty offputting that a supposed dharma teacher is getting so emotionally involved, worked up and unhinged about mere theological (buddhological?) squabbles about right or wrong belief (here in the form of right or wrong incarnation). Shouldn't a supposedly realized person stand above such worldly attitudes? (in that interview he was asked about the Karma Kagyu shism)
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Re: Ole Nydahl and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:57 pm

theanarchist wrote:Shouldn't a supposedly realized person stand above such worldly attitudes? (in that interview he was asked about the Karma Kagyu shism)


I honestly don't know. I'm certainly not a fan of Ole Nydahl's and I don't want to defend his emotional reactions, and neither do I think that he's enlightened or on a Bodhisattva Bhumi. But on a general level, I don't know. Don't even Bodhisattvas have faults and are sometimes blinded by emotions?
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Re: Ole Nydahl and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:56 pm

theanarchist wrote:
ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
I'm of course not claiming to know that this is what Ole Nydahl meant, of course I don't know what he meant, I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily have to mean that he broke his Bodhisattva vows.



Of course noone can know what his true intention was behind this statement.

I personally find it pretty offputting that a supposed dharma teacher is getting so emotionally involved, worked up and unhinged about mere theological (buddhological?) squabbles about right or wrong belief (here in the form of right or wrong incarnation). Shouldn't a supposedly realized person stand above such worldly attitudes? (in that interview he was asked about the Karma Kagyu shism)


Bodhisattvas will sometimes feign strong emotions to get a point across. There are countless examples of this in buddhist history, like Marpa with Milerepa. Also, Bodhisattavs are not apathetic.

Apart from this, ensuring the authenticity of the linage and transmission is of the highest importance. And for anyone interested in ensuring the survival of the Karma Kagyu linage it is definitely something to be concerned about. I certainly am. If the transmission is lost then so are unique benefits of the Vajrayana.

From a prophecy by the 5th Karmapa.

"In the successive line of Karmapas, during the latter part of the 16 th Karmapa’s life, and at the beginning of the 17 th , the emanation of one who has broken Vajrayana vows, a lama who has the name of “Natha” will appear at this seat of Karma Gon. By the effect and power of that wrong wish, the Karma Kagyu Lineage/Doctrine (will be) nearly destroyed at that time. At that time, someone who has made wishes in the past, an emanation of Guru Padmasambhava’s mind/heart will appear from the west.

He has a circular line of moles on his chest and a wrathful temperament. From his mouth come wrathful words, or the mantra of the wrathful deities. He has a dark complexion and two eyes bulging, or prominently shaped. That one (he) will defeat the emanation of the one who has violated the Vajrayana vows. Through that person, the region of Tibet will be protected for some time, during which there will be some happiness like having a glimpse of the sun. Here is what will happen in the country of Tibet."
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:14 pm

I have heard that this prophecy by the 5th Karmapa, refers to Akong Rinpoche. Knowing him for many years, I must say many of the points do correspond with him....in appearance and personality. Also he came from the west and discovered the Karmapa.

Also his humanitarian activity in Tibet over the past 30+ years has brought great protection and happiness to thousands in Tibet.

Natha=nephew ie. Shamar is the 16th Karmapa's nephew.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:24 pm

Natha does not mean nephew in either Tibetan or Sanskrift. I imagine a expert translator like Malcolm could clear this up.

In the Trinley Thaye Dorje camp the wrathful emation mentioned is generally thought to be Shamapa. He lives west from the place mentioned in the prophecy and the Shamarpa is traditionally considered an emanation of Buddha Amitabtha(The Buddha of the western direction). As to being an emanation of Padmasambhava

"Karmapa and Konchog Bang(the 5th Shamarpa) and Padma Jung-ney me are all just seperate in appearance; In reality there is no separation, (all) in one essence." -Padmasambhava, (from chokguyr lingpas biography).
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Re: Ole Nydahl and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby theanarchist » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:29 pm

AlexanderS wrote: the Karma Kagyu Lineage/Doctrine (will be) nearly destroyed at that time.



That sounds grossly exaggerated to me if it's referring to the Karmapa issue. After all, there are enough authentic holders of the dharma lineage so there was never any danger for it to be lost or destroyed.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:36 pm

To be perfectly honest...I really don't care...its got to the point where some of the arguments and interpretations are pretty desperate....more to the point, it in no way effects my practice...which has kind of moved in another direction anyway.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Atanavat » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:27 am

I have read numerous very negative first hand account of Mr. Nydahl (not posting links) and I have read many statements and quotes supposedly made my him, that where (in my view) very un-wise or downright foolish and Guru-cult-personality like in character. I have been in his presence and did not get a good wibe from him (this was before I had read anything) I would not trust him to clean my toilet.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:21 pm

AlexanderS wrote:Natha does not mean nephew in either Tibetan or Sanskrift. I imagine a expert translator like Malcolm could clear this up.

In the Trinley Thaye Dorje camp the wrathful emation mentioned is generally thought to be Shamapa. He lives west from the place mentioned in the prophecy and the Shamarpa is traditionally considered an emanation of Buddha Amitabtha(The Buddha of the western direction). As to being an emanation of Padmasambhava

"Karmapa and Konchog Bang(the 5th Shamarpa) and Padma Jung-ney me are all just seperate in appearance; In reality there is no separation, (all) in one essence." -Padmasambhava, (from chokguyr lingpas biography).


Natha (savior, guide, protector) = mgon po = reference to a personal name, in this case some take this "Natha" to be the present Shamar, who is the newphew of the 16th Karmapa.

However, there are different ways of counting the Karmapa incarnations which would indicate that the troubles existed during an earlier incarnation.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:43 pm

Why do people take this to be Shamarpa when it neither means nephew and "natha" does not feature in Shamapas name?

From the book "The karmapa prophecies"

"The Tibetan word for “natha” is “mgon”, from “mgon-po”. In his
prophecy, Karmapa Dezhin Shegpa used the word “natha” without
ambiguity. As found on page 286 of Sarat Chandra Das Dictionary, “natha”
means “protector;” there is no mention of “nephew” or “relation,” or any
other suggestion of any meaning that comes close to either of these words.

The abovementioned definition on page 286 of the Sarat Chandra Das
Dictionary contains no reference to a nephew, or for that matter, to any relation, be
it familial, professional, or social.
"

"One example is the famous Taranatha. This is a Sanskrit name, which
translates as Drolwae Gonpo in Tibetan – “natha” corresponds with
“gonpo”.
Byam Ngon (or Chamgon or Jamgon) is the short form of the illustrious
Mahabodhisattva Maitreya’s Tibetan name. His full Sanskrit name is Natha
Maitreya (‘Protector Maitreya’), and his full Tibetan name is Byampa
(“loving”) Ngonpo (“protector”) or Byam Ngon when abbreviated.
Tibetan words are often formed by joining parts of separate words, which
explains why Byampa Ngonpo appears as Byam Ngon in this case.
There are other examples of names with “natha” or “ngon” in them. Eight
Nyingma lamas in the past have had “natha” in their names. In every case
without exception, the meaning of “natha” is consistent with “protector.”"
"

The word natha, gon or Chamgon only appears in the full name of 1 of the main actors in this dispute and it's not Shamarpa.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:43 pm

Alexander,

You've obviously spent a fair bit of time worrying about this, which is a shame really.

The text you are quoting from is from a Gelugpa Geshe's interpretation of the prophecy, but previously the Shamar camp had criticised the Gelugpas for getting involved in a Kagyupa issue! Make up your mind, do you want their input or not? Or only when it supports your agenda?!

The fact of the matter is that the whole thing backfired on Shamar big time, hardly any Kagyu, or other lineages for that matter, have backed Trinlay Thaye, at best they pay him basic respect, but in reality it's always Karmapa OTD they meet publically. So, sadly, you have begun to rely on slander and conspiracy theory to give them a foot hold.

I know Situ Rinpoche, my main teacher is a close student of his, Mingyur Rinpoche, I have heard neither of them, publically or privately, slander or criticise anyone in the Shamar camp, on the other hand I have heard shameful comments coming from there...disgusting things said about Situ Rinpoche, and more shockingly Akong Rinpoche, even after his murder in October...I also knew Akong Rinpoche well, and the things said are not only upsetting but completely false.

This contempt has filtered through from above to students like yourself and Greg, who make statements based on hearsay and slander they have heard second hand, see Greg’s shocking and unsympathetic statement in October about Akong Rinpoche’s death, don’t get me wrong,. He apologised… after about a week or so, and after several people pointed out how out of order it was, and I daresay a warning from a mod, but it’s just symptomatic of the whole attitude underlying your motivation.

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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:07 pm

Stewart wrote:Alexander,

You've obviously spent a fair bit of time worrying about this, which is a shame really.

The text you are quoting from is from a Gelugpa Geshe's interpretation of the prophecy, but previously the Shamar camp had criticised the Gelugpas for getting involved in a Kagyupa issue! Make up your mind, do you want their input or not? Or only when it supports your agenda?!

The fact of the matter is that the whole thing backfired on Shamar big time, hardly any Kagyu, or other lineages for that matter, have backed Trinlay Thaye, at best they pay him basic respect, but in reality it's always Karmapa OTD they meet publically. So, sadly, you have begun to rely on slander and conspiracy theory to give them a foot hold.

I know Situ Rinpoche, my main teacher is a close student of his, Mingyur Rinpoche, I have heard neither of them, publically or privately, slander or criticise anyone in the Shamar camp, on the other hand I have heard shameful comments coming from there...disgusting things said about Situ Rinpoche, and more shockingly Akong Rinpoche, even after his murder in October...I also knew Akong Rinpoche well, and the things said are not only upsetting but completely false.

This contempt has filtered through from above to students like yourself and Greg, who make statements based on hearsay and slander they have heard second hand, see Greg’s shocking and unsympathetic statement in October about Akong Rinpoche’s death, don’t get me wrong,. He apologised… after about a week or so, and after several people pointed out how out of order it was, and I daresay a warning from a mod, but it’s just symptomatic of the whole attitude underlying your motivation.

s


Stewart, the 5th karmapa prophecy we are disussing is from it's root text.

The commentary from the gelug geshe that I quoted here is on the meaning of the word "natha" which does not mean nephew. His explanation of the meaning of the word is correct as any decent translator can verify.

You know absolutely nothing about me so please don't pretend that you do.
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Re: Ole Nydahi and Trungpa rinpoche

Postby Stewart » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:13 pm

I'm not pretending anything, I'm just pointing out that you’re pedalling out all the usual crap that has been done to death over the years, and I really don't care about it anymore.
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