Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

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Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby frank123 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:44 pm

I read this paragraph posted on facebook this morning.
Wrathful display. Jeremy Hayward describes a time when someone asked Rinpoche if he could turn water into wine. He asked that a bucket of water be brought, and he handed out glasses to everyone, who seemed to get high. Then he went into a rage and screamed “frak off! Do you think I'm Jesus Christ? Get out of here!” (Apparently the idea that he could perform such miracles was idiotic, and everyone who went along with it was being an idiot.) The person who suggested it tried to apologize, but Rinpoche punched him so hard he flew across the room. (Hayward: Remembering Chögyam Trungpa. ) Excerpt from an article from: DAVID CHAPMAN.

Does anyone know if there is any truth to this story?Is it ever all right for a lama to hit there student like this,seems kind of extreme.Maybe i couldn't be a student of a wrathful lama.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Dan74 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:51 pm

frank123 wrote:I read this paragraph posted on facebook this morning.
Wrathful display. Jeremy Hayward describes a time when someone asked Rinpoche if he could turn water into wine. He asked that a bucket of water be brought, and he handed out glasses to everyone, who seemed to get high. Then he went into a rage and screamed “frak off! Do you think I'm Jesus Christ? Get out of here!” (Apparently the idea that he could perform such miracles was idiotic, and everyone who went along with it was being an idiot.) The person who suggested it tried to apologize, but Rinpoche punched him so hard he flew across the room. (Hayward: Remembering Chögyam Trungpa. ) Excerpt from an article from: DAVID CHAPMAN.

Does anyone know if there is any truth to this story?Is it ever all right for a lama to hit there student like this,seems kind of extreme.Maybe i couldn't be a student of a wrathful lama.


Chogyam Trungpa was not your regular Buddhist teacher. There are examples of such teachers in other traditions too, but true 'crazy wisdom' teachers are few and far in between and should be approached with extreme caution, IMO.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:59 pm

From Hayward's "Warrior-King of Shambhala":
Toward the end of the evening, there was suddenly a commotion around Rinpoche and everything stopped. Someone had asked him if he could turn water into wine, to which he had replied, "Bring me a bucket of water!" He was still half lying in the armchair, alone now. He had the bucket beside the armchair on his right side, which was his good side, and he was vigorously stirring the water around in the bucket. Then he handed out glasses of water to people and ordered them to drink the water in one gulp. Of course, if you try to drink a whole glass of water in one gulp, you become slightly hyperventilated and can feel a bit intoxicated. I heard him say, "Give some to Jeremy," so I drank the glass of water I was given and, indeed, felt a little high. Suddenly he screamed, "F*ck off! Do you think I'm Jesus Christ? Get out of here!" He was in a rage. The person who had asked him about turning water into wine went up to him and tried to apologize, but Rinpoche punched him so hard in the chest that he went flying across the room. We all slunk away, our tails between our legs.

This was another turning point for me, because it was the first time I had seen Rinpoche angry in that way. The scene was shocking in its power and in the force of his anger. Clearly, he was angry at our spiritual materialism, treating him like some sort of savior; he was angry at the amazing stupidity of it. Hadn't we got it yet? After a whole summer of teachings about being ordinary and sane, we were still asking him stupid questions like that. As I drove back to TOTT, I was in a state of complete shock but very awake, and I asked myself, "Do I want to be with this man? Do I want to be in this scene?"

http://books.google.com/books?id=gwF9psGBxccC&pg=PA52
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby frank123 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:13 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:From Hayward's "Warrior-King of Shambhala":
Toward the end of the evening, there was suddenly a commotion around Rinpoche and everything stopped. Someone had asked him if he could turn water into wine, to which he had replied, "Bring me a bucket of water!" He was still half lying in the armchair, alone now. He had the bucket beside the armchair on his right side, which was his good side, and he was vigorously stirring the water around in the bucket. Then he handed out glasses of water to people and ordered them to drink the water in one gulp. Of course, if you try to drink a whole glass of water in one gulp, you become slightly hyperventilated and can feel a bit intoxicated. I heard him say, "Give some to Jeremy," so I drank the glass of water I was given and, indeed, felt a little high. Suddenly he screamed, "F*ck off! Do you think I'm Jesus Christ? Get out of here!" He was in a rage. The person who had asked him about turning water into wine went up to him and tried to apologize, but Rinpoche punched him so hard in the chest that he went flying across the room. We all slunk away, our tails between our legs.

This was another turning point for me, because it was the first time I had seen Rinpoche angry in that way. The scene was shocking in its power and in the force of his anger. Clearly, he was angry at our spiritual materialism, treating him like some sort of savior; he was angry at the amazing stupidity of it. Hadn't we got it yet? After a whole summer of teachings about being ordinary and sane, we were still asking him stupid questions like that. As I drove back to TOTT, I was in a state of complete shock but very awake, and I asked myself, "Do I want to be with this man? Do I want to be in this scene?"

http://books.google.com/books?id=gwF9psGBxccC&pg=PA52


Thanks for the link.I think i will read some more of the book.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:10 am

I thought it was very interesting.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Ayu » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:25 pm

The book is touching. Thanks for the link.

Maybe this is also interesting for some: http://www.konchok.org/trungpa.html
Trungpa Rinpoche is back as Chokyi Sengay Trungpa Rinpoche XII.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby frank123 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:47 pm

I read what was available of the book on google.It does put things in more perspective.I find it interesting that his own answer to his question "do i want to be with this man" was a "definite yes".
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:59 pm

Story is a keeper lol!
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:11 am

frank123 wrote:I read what was available of the book on google.It does put things in more perspective.I find it interesting that his own answer to his question "do i want to be with this man" was a "definite yes".

Seems strange to me, too.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby frank123 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:37 pm

Mkoll wrote:
frank123 wrote:I read what was available of the book on google.It does put things in more perspective.I find it interesting that his own answer to his question "do i want to be with this man" was a "definite yes".

Seems strange to me, too.

I find it interesting in a positive sense :smile:
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:33 am

frank123 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
frank123 wrote:I read what was available of the book on google.It does put things in more perspective.I find it interesting that his own answer to his question "do i want to be with this man" was a "definite yes".

Seems strange to me, too.

I find it interesting in a positive sense :smile:

I find it interesting in a "to each his own" sense. :tongue:
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby frank123 » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:38 am

Good man :thumbsup:
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:03 am

frank123 wrote:I find it interesting that his own answer to his question "do i want to be with this man" was a "definite yes".

Apparently it worked out alright for Hayward:

dedication.PNG
dedication.PNG (13.78 KiB) Viewed 796 times

http://books.google.com/books?id=gwF9psGBxccC&pg=PR5
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Ayu » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:05 pm

Seems to me, if one judges CTR's behavior, it is necessary to consider time and place of his work: the US-american hippie scene in the early 70th. I think, he jumped into it and fetched the people from where they were.
Another good example that it is no good to judge about what one doesn't understand well.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Hieros Gamos » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:27 pm

It was a stupid thing to say to your teacher. I would have punched him in the face also.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:05 pm

Ayu wrote:Seems to me, if one judges CTR's behavior, it is necessary to consider time and place of his work: the US-american hippie scene in the early 70th. I think, he jumped into it and fetched the people from where they were.
Another good example that it is no good to judge about what one doesn't understand well.



Depending on one's personality and tendencies, this behavior isn't necessarily off-putting. This kind of story is exactly the kind of thing that drew me to Trungpa Rinpoches work..hard to understand I know, but I think his teachings still resonate today due precisely to what you are talking about, he sort inserted himself into American culture in a particular way, and taught from there. We Americans love spectacle, he knew it and used it.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby hop.pala » Fri Sep 05, 2014 4:30 pm

In general I disaggre with the conclusion of Chogyam Trungpa,but agree with the description of tibetan buddhism.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby boda » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:24 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Ayu wrote:Seems to me, if one judges CTR's behavior, it is necessary to consider time and place of his work: the US-american hippie scene in the early 70th. I think, he jumped into it and fetched the people from where they were.
Another good example that it is no good to judge about what one doesn't understand well.



Depending on one's personality and tendencies, this behavior isn't necessarily off-putting. This kind of story is exactly the kind of thing that drew me to Trungpa Rinpoches work..hard to understand I know, but I think his teachings still resonate today due precisely to what you are talking about, he sort inserted himself into American culture in a particular way, and taught from there. We Americans love spectacle, he knew it and used it.


Used it to teach something? We're just too ignorant to understand what he may have been teaching, right?

He may not have been able to turn water into wine, but he could bunch someone across the room, and he could teach something that's beyond our ability to understand, even though it may appear to be merely a drunken loss of temper or whatever.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby Hieros Gamos » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:38 pm

boda wrote:He may not have been able to turn water into wine, but he could bunch someone across the room, and he could teach something that's beyond our ability to understand, even though it may appear to be merely a drunken loss of temper or whatever.

Hey at least he didn't tear their skullcap off and drink their brains. I agree with JD.
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Re: Turning water into wine(Chogyam Trungpa)

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:09 pm

boda wrote:We're just too ignorant to understand what he may have been teaching, right?

Quite possibly.
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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