Change Tibetan Buddhism

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Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby DarwidHalim » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:21 pm

I would like to suggest to change the Tibetan Buddhism to other names, possibly:
Vajrayana Buddhism

Because the tradition of Tibetan Buddhism is mainly coming from Nalanda tradition. On the other hand, Nepal, and Bhutan, Himalayan region also share similar identity.

Tibetan Buddhism suggest a name that the teaching is built in Tibet and can soud like a cult.

In reality, most of them are Nalanda tradition preserves in Tibet. Therefore, the name of Tibetan Buddhism may not be appropriate.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:32 pm

Generally, Vajrayana practitioners refer to "Vajrayana Buddhism" among themselves or with other Buddhists. However, to the general public this term may have no meaningful associations in the mind, so "Tibetan" is the term often used to describe it. But while it might be accurate to say that all Tibetan Buddhism is essentially Vajrayana, it is not true that all Vajrayana Buddhism is Tibetan, and the most obvious example that comes to my mind is Shingon, which is Japanese.

If the term "Tibetan Buddhism" is being used to refer specifically to lineages which have survived and emerged through what is essentially a Tibetan tradition, even though this tradition is, from a strictly geographical standpoint found in Bhutan, Ladakh, Sikkim, and so forth (not to mention the fact that it is rooted in India and is really therefore an Indian tradition), I think "Tibetan" it is probably an accurate enough term, and would be inclusive of any historical developments prior to Nalanda.

However, your point is well made.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby plwk » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:37 pm

Yes, I would second it but perhaps with 2 major categories: as practiced in Tibet and Japan.
And please restore back Shingon to this rightful place under 'Vajrayana' from its obscure East Asian Buddhism corner.
I have requested for this since the time of the pioneer team of Dharma Wheel and have waited til kingdom come since then... :thanks:
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Virgo » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:47 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:
Tibetan Buddhism suggest a name that the teaching is built in Tibet and can soud like a cult.

Can sound like a cult?

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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:20 pm

I think the point being made here is that some "exotic " quality is being attributed to the Vajrayana by calling it "Tibetan", perhaps because of misunderstandings about Vajrayana Buddhism, or claims that "Tibetan" buddhism is somehow a deviant form of Buddhist teachings.

Virgo wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:
Tibetan Buddhism suggest a name that the teaching is built in Tibet and can sound like a cult.

Can sound like a cult?

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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:11 am

Exactly.

For the people who know Vajrayana, it has no problem.

But, for people who do not know, it cause unnecessary issue.

For example, for people who do not know buddhism, Thailand Buddhism, Burmese Buddhism, Sri Lanka Buddhism can sound like the teaching is to some degree is distorted.

It is a matter of fact that even some Theravada practitioners see that Vajrayana buddhism is invented by Tibetan lama.

Although this is their problem, I think the naming of Tibetan Buddhism does invite unnecessary problem for itself.

It is better not to combine the country + buddhism.

Tibetan Buddhism
Nepal Buddhism
Bhutan Buddhism
etc.

All of them sound very distorted for external party.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:27 am

David, it is just that you seem to always want to change something. Now don't get me wrong, sometimes change is necessary and is absolutely good, but when you want to change things as much as you do, it makes me think you want to fundamentally transform things, now what is at the root of this? Do you wish to fundamentally transform Buddhism?

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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:47 am

It is just a suggestion anyway. It also doesn't affect me at the end.

Because the structure in this web is
Exploring Buddhism
Mahayana Buddhism
Tibetan Buddhism


I think it will be nice if it should be Vajrayana Buddhism.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Blue Garuda » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:00 am

Mahaya should become 'Idolatry'


Vajrayana should become 'Idolatry and Sex with Llamas' :rolling:

It is true that I normally think of Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana and think that if we used those terms people would soon learn them. It would be an uphill struggle, though, since some people identify the Dalai Lama as the head of all Buddhism and think Tibet is and was some blissful Shangri-la society.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby dakini_boi » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:34 am

DarwidHalim wrote:I would like to suggest to change the Tibetan Buddhism to other names, possibly:
Vajrayana Buddhism


Agree.

And also, good idea to put Shingon in there. Could be a subtopic -i.e. Nyingma, Kagyu, Dzogchen, Shingon. . . etc.

While we're at it, it seems the same could be done to "East Asian" forum. Instead, group Zen, Pure Land, etc, as subcategories of Mahayana. Cause at the end of the day, an American Zen pracititioner is not practicing "East Asian Buddhism." The important distinctions would be Zen and Mahayana.

Good suggestion.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby viniketa » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:41 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:I would like to suggest to change the Tibetan Buddhism to other names, possibly:
Vajrayana Buddhism


Agree.... Good suggestion.


Agree.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby mutsuk » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:01 am

I don't agree, not everything in Tibetan Buddhism belongs to Vajrayana, this is a tragic reduction.

Furthermore, many of the countries mentioned (in an above post) where TB is being practiced use tibetan script and language in their texts, including Mongolia (although not as much as in other TB influenced countries).
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Namgyal » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:45 am

It's just a convenient name with no connotations of a cult. As for 'Nalanda Buddhism' that is even more inaccurate, what about Vikramashila, Odantapuri, Jagaddala and the others, not to mention ancient sources in Kashmir, Swat and Central Asia. Sometimes the term 'Himalayan Buddhism' is used but that's not ideal either, considering that Tibet is basically the dominant culture in the region. My own preference when talking with Theravada Buddhists is for the old-fashioned academic term 'Northern Buddhism' (Mahayana, including the Vajrayana, in Tibet, China and the Far East) as opposed to 'Southern Buddhism' (Theravada in Sri Lanka and South-East Asia).
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby lobster » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:51 am

Tibet Autonomous Region Buddhism or Chinese Buddhism or Vajrayana?
Political agenda and other baggage Buddhism?

I think most people wish to practice vajrayana, a rich heritage not owned or practiced in one region only. :shrug:
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby mutsuk » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:57 am

lobster wrote:I think most people wish to practice vajrayana, a rich heritage not owned or practiced in one region only. :shrug:


I know a helluva people in TB who do not practice Vajrayana. If the forum "Tibetan Buddhism" turns into "Vajrayana Buddhism" then you'll have to kick out Dzogchen (which for some is not Vajrayana) and Sutra Mahamudra, etc. This is stupid and to me it sounds as another attempt at weakening that forum.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby lobster » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 pm

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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby mutsuk » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:48 pm


Yeah right! that's exactly how your own post sounds! Funny you did not see it... Changing Tibetan Buddhism into Whatever Buddhism is not going to improve the situation. It is basically a totally stupid idea, I'm pretty sure it is not without hidden agendas... It came right in time, eh guys? People like you and others sustaining this idea are doing great contribs :toilet: to the weakening of this forum. Now, with the departure of the most interesting guy posting here, there is little hope that ideas such as this nonsensical change of heading will serve anything good, except your own agendas which of course are filled with good intentions...
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:45 am

What about Tantric Buddhism (Tantrayana)?

Sönam
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby mutsuk » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:30 am

Sönam wrote:What about Tantric Buddhism (Tantrayana)?

Sönam

"Vajrayana Buddhism" or "Tantric Buddhism" does not change anything, this is exactly the same thing. If TIbetan Buddhism is changed into anything "Tantric/Vajra Whatever" then you'll have to put Dzogchen out of that, as well as Sutra Mahamudra, all the Geluk-related mahayana teachings/subject, all the Jonang stuff that is non-tantric, etc. This will simply makes things more complex if one is to look for, say, Kagyu stuff in the "Tantric/Vajra Whatever" and somewhere else for all subjects in Kagyu (etc.) which are not tantric. There is already the subforum "Buddhist Tantra Talk". Why change ?

The answer is that these proposals for changes from people who do not post interesting things at all in Tibetan Buddhism are coming right in time when the sole interesting guy (with a welcome big mouth and knowledge) has already left that forum. More non-pertinent changes like the one proposed will simply add to the weakening of the forum itself. But I'm sure there are clear agendas behind that. That's too easy...
Last edited by mutsuk on Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Change Tibetan Buddhism

Postby Sönam » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:14 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Sönam wrote:What about Tantric Buddhism (Tantrayana)?

Sönam

"Vajrayana Buddhism" or "Tantric Buddhism" does not change anything, this is exactly the same thing. If TIbetan Buddhism is changed into anything "Tantric/Vajra" Whatever" then you'll have to put Dzogchen out of that, as well as Sutra Mahamudra, all the Geluk-related mahayana teachings/subject, all the Jonang stuff that is non-tantric, etc. This will simply makes things more complex if one is to look for, say, Kagyu stuff in the "Tantric/Vajra Whatever" and somewhere else for all subjects in Kagyu (etc.) which are not tantric. There is already the subforum "Buddhist Tantra Talk". Why change ?

The answer is that these proposals for changes from people who do not post interesting things at all in Tibetan Buddhism are coming right in time when the sole interesting guy (with a welcome big mouth and knowledge) has already left that forum. More non-pertinent changes like the one proposed will simply add to the weakening of the forum itself. But I'm sure there are clear agendas behind that. That's too easy...


I agree concerning Vajra and Tantra and so on ... it was just an answer to the existence of a tantric school in Japan (and therefore non Tibetan).

But I once more agree (whouaaah) with you concerning Malcom's departure and the "coup de peinture" that would not change the luminosity of the forum ... but I also have some ideas that it is not the end of our forum-exchanges with that sole interesting guy.

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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