Dharma Wheel

Caz wrote:Vinaya=extensive morale discipline.
I hope we can all keep some.

catmoon wrote:I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary

catmoon wrote:I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary

gregkavarnos wrote:

catmoon wrote:I can't really say why, but reading this thread has given rise to an uncontrollable urge to self-ordain.


-Most Rev. Catmoon Rinpoche
Northerner Representative and Buddhist Dharma Regent Plenipotentiary

Hey! Who gave you permission to use my title? Tell you what, you can get to keep it if I get to be Northener Representative and Buddhist Dharma HIGH Regent Plenipotentiary. Deal?

Astus wrote: As for an ordination forum, since there is little discussion of such matters I see no need for a whole separate place for it.

gregkavarnos wrote:Just call me HR for bervitys sake!

Luke wrote:I see you're being modest today... You left off the ISB (Intergalactic Super Buddha)!

Luke wrote:

Astus wrote: As for an ordination forum, since there is little discussion of such matters I see no need for a whole separate place for it.

I agree, but maybe it would be useful to have a thread about ordination resources and faqs (questions you should ask yourself before ordaining, a list of monasteries that accept westerners, the details of the Vinaya, etc.) pinned at the top of some subforum.

gregkavarnos wrote:Just call me HR for bervitys sake!

I see you're being modest today... You left off the ISB (Intergalactic Super Buddha)!

that's all well and good... it's just the Bene Gesserit witches you have to look out for.

The Vinaya
The Vinaya is the second book in the Pali Tipitaka and contains the two hundred and twenty seven
rules monks are supposed to follow and the procedures for the ordering of monastic communities. A
separate section contains the rules for nuns. Westerners, indeed many lay Asian Theravadins as
well, believe that monks follow all these rules. This is not so, it never has been and it is only
sensible that it be that way. Many rules are irrelevant or meaningless outside the ancient Indian
context in which they were drawn up. What actually happens is that the majority of monks follow
the rules that have traditionally been followed and ignore rules that have not traditionally been
followed. It is difficult to detect any pattern in the selection of each other than that rules giving
monks precedence and status are always practiced and insisted upon with the greatest conviction.
Some quite useful rules are ignored completely while other seemingly useless ones are followed
scrupulously. Again, certain rules are carefully observed but in the most inane way or in the letter
only. Yet again, others are observed in a way that seems to defy any logic or purpose at all. For
example, the overwhelming majority of monks ‘handle money,’ to use the curious Theravadin
phrase. They buy, they sell, they have bank accounts, they accept donations, sometimes they even
demand them and this is looked upon as perfectly normal although it is against the Vinaya. Some
more finicky monks might insist that any cash given to them be put in an envelope so that they
don’t actually have physical contact with it, thus conforming to the letter of the rule while ignoring
its intent. Monks will not drink milk after midday , which accords with the Vinaya, but in Thailand
they will eat cheese and chocolate in the afternoon which clearly does not. The Vinaya says that any
food given to a monk must be formally offered, but if a lay person forgets to do this the monk will
instruct him to do so, which infringes the Vinaya rule about asking for anything. In the better
monasteries a ceremony is held twice a month during which monks are supposed to confess any
infringements of the rules or inappropriate behavior. This ceremony could have great value for
personal development and communal living. However, it is nearly always done in a purely
perfunctory manner where the words of the ceremony are simply recited with no real confession or
forgiveness taking place.
On top of all this there are a number of customary practices which are not in the Vinaya but are
treated as if they were, sometimes treated as even more sacrosanct. Thus Thai monks accept gifts of
money despite this being against the Vinaya, but they will never take anything directly from a
woman’s hand, which is not stipulated by the Vinaya. When a monk does the first no one thinks
anything of it, but if he fails to do the second he would be looked upon with extreme disapproval,
perhaps even disrobed. There is one other complication as well. Which rules are traditionally
followed and which are not and the customary practices that have developed around them differ
from country to country, from sect to sect, sometimes even from one region to another within the
same country. Thai monks, for example, are critical of their Burmese counterparts for going out
with only one shoulder covered with the robe. Sri Lankan monks use aluminum alms bowls but for
some unaccountable reason Thai monks consider this to be against the Vinaya. No Sri Lankan monk
would dare to smoke in public because this is believed to infringe the Vinaya but it is quite
acceptable for them to chew tobacco. Thailand’s Thammayut sect likewise considers smoking to be
contrary to Vinaya but the Mahaniky sect does not.
The reality is that the Sangha has been running on automatic for centuries and the major factor
governing most monks’ behavior is not Vinaya or Dhamma but long established traditions. Some of
these traditions originate with the Vinaya and accord with it, some do not. Some are practical and
sensible, many are pointless. Some could be useful if practiced with wisdom, a few are downright
bad. The majority of monks conform to traditional patterns of behavior, at least while lay people are
watching, and live their lives giving little or no thought to the Dhamma or the Vinaya. A much
smaller number of sincere monks, understandably reacting against the slovenliness of the majority,
try to follow every rule with almost fanatical exactness. This however, not only shows a serious
misunderstanding of the Dhamma, it also inevitably leads to the absurdities and problems that will
be mentioned below. An even smaller number of equally sincere but perhaps more intelligent
monks are capable of seeing the overall intent of the monastic life - mindful, disciplined behavior
conducive to understanding – and try their best to be like that without necessarily following every
rule literally. Unfortunately, such monks are a tiny cohort who get no support from the unthinking
tradition-bound majority and receive only sneering disapproval from the inflexible fundamentalists
minority.

I once knew a monk who kept a pair of tweezers so that he could count the donations he received without having
physical contact with them.

Dechen Norbu wrote:

I once knew a monk who kept a pair of tweezers so that he could count the donations he received without having
physical contact with them.

I read this little book a long time ago. Some of the passages were absolutely hilarious!

but it didn't work in the end.