Dial back the moderation a notch please

Offer your suggestions about how we can improve this forum to better serve our members, and tell us here about any technical problems.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Admin_PC »

BrianG wrote:The offshoot of 4Chan, Anonymous, is currently attacking ISIS non-violently.
That is more virtuous than censoring conversation about the Paris attacks, which is unvirtuous.
4Chan also encouraged the Oregon shooter to go on a killing rampage...
Tell me again how they are more virtuous...
http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsandcult ... er-to-kill
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dharmagoat
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by dharmagoat »

BrianG wrote:Just to clarify - Would the Buddha be allowed to post on Dharmawheel, or would he be banned for "name-calling"?
I doubt any posters here have the responsibilities of the Buddha:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:First the narrator notes that the view is not merely wrong, but actually evil and pernicious: To adopt it would be to place an obstacle in one's path... The Buddha's treatment of Sāti might seem harsh, but he is actually acting out of compassion for the monks in the assembly, in case any of them might be swayed by Sāti's position. Seeing Sāti as a lost cause, the Buddha doesn't want this lost cause to cause further losses among the other monks.
MN 38
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Admin_PC »

Also, like it or not, for a lot of Dharma topics (especially Mahayana & Vajrayana ones), this forum is the first site that comes up in a Google search. That makes this more than "just a forum" as well. I got reminded of the need for careful posting just today in fact. That's why there's a lot of effort to make sure the discussion here accurately represents Mahayana & Vajrayana doctrines.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Hi, Brian,
Just responding to a couple of points which others haven't picked up:
BrianG wrote:The offshoot of 4Chan, Anonymous, is currently attacking ISIS non-violently. That is more virtuous than censoring conversation about the Paris attacks, which is unvirtuous.
"Censoring" is a loaded word, as I'm sure you know, but I will use it anyway while responding to you.
Censorship is not always unvirtuous, by a long shot. Censoring respectful, well-intentioned conversation about the Paris attacks (or nearly anything else) is unvirtuous. Censoring those who advocate criminal action is virtuous, IMO. Censoring hate speech, which is what we most often do here, is virtuous. Censoring rudeness and abuse is virtuous, and we do that fairly often, too. :thinking:
BrianG wrote:It's inappropriate for people to write that some people are welcome at Dharmawheel, and others are not welcome. If someone comes seeking information about the Dharma, then they are seeking refuge. Granting conditional refuge, which KeithBC is in favor of, is completely contrary to the Dharma. Judging people by the tone of their posts, and not the substance, is superficial.
That's a string of half-truths:
It's inappropriate for people to write that some people are welcome at Dharmawheel, and others are not welcome.
Writing it within most threads would be off-topic. Writing it in regard to a sincere Buddhist would be wrong. Writing it in regard to a troll or rabid Christian proselytiser would not be wrong and might not be inappropriate - although there would usually be better ways to handle the issue.

If someone comes seeking information about the Dharma, then they are seeking refuge.
Not necessarily. For instance, we get a fair few college kids looking for help with essays about Buddhism. :tongue:

Granting conditional refuge, which KeithBC is in favor of, is completely contrary to the Dharma.
And I don't see Keith proposing it.

Judging people by the tone of their posts, and not the substance, is superficial.
It is (broadly) additional information about the person and we need all the information about each other that we can see, because we really don't know much about each other. It's the curse of the internet forum.
There is no better example of "Right Speech" than the Buddha. Was the Buddha's tone always respectful? No. He had no problems calling people worthless.
Just to clarify - Would the Buddha be allowed to post on Dharmawheel, or would he be banned for "name-calling"?
He would be very welcome, of course, and I would trust him absolutely to follow his own guidelines for "Right Speech".
I commend, for your particular attention, "The criteria for deciding what is worth saying" on this page: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by KathyLauren »

BrianG wrote:Granting conditional refuge, which KeithBC is in favor of, is completely contrary to the Dharma.
So is the fabrication of untruths.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

I would like to moderate the thankless for their saluting job.
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alien
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by alien »

Passive-aggressive trolls are the worst and this forum is 70% PA trolls.

They only exist in environments where mods enforce subjective defintions of "rude" keep people from telling them off for not contributing sincerely.

Dude, do any of you even see how little traffic this site gets? Why do you need so many moderators? What is the mod to regular user ratio anyway? 3:2?

I'm a mod for a 5000+/ day forum. Take my advice! Scan for spam and personal info like SSN's that need to be made invisible, and leave the rest to work itself out. For $h1t's sake, don't use moderators that have opinions or are interested in the subject their modding. And forget being sued because some user was insulted, it would never fly in court. The real liablity is in intercepting and blocking electronic communications, which is what moderating technically is. Blocking electronic messages can carry jail time and a website's TOS doesn't mean jack in court. My forum learned this the hard way and had to pay out to the user to avoid criminal prosecution of one of the employee mods.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by amanitamusc »

alien wrote:Passive-aggressive trolls are the worst and this forum is 70% PA trolls.

They only exist in environments where mods enforce subjective defintions of "rude" keep people from telling them off for not contributing sincerely.

Dude, do any of you even see how little traffic this site gets? Why do you need so many moderators? What is the mod to regular user ratio anyway? 3:2?

I'm a mod for a 5000+/ day forum. Take my advice! Scan for spam and personal info like SSN's that need to be made invisible, and leave the rest to work itself out. For $h1t's sake, don't use moderators that have opinions or are interested in the subject their modding. And forget being sued because some user was insulted, it would never fly in court. The real liablity is in intercepting and blocking electronic communications, which is what moderating technically is. Blocking electronic messages can carry jail time and a website's TOS doesn't mean jack in court. My forum learned this the hard way and had to pay out to the user to avoid criminal prosecution of one of the employee mods.
You have introduced yourself in your first sentence. :alien:
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dharmagoat
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by dharmagoat »

alien wrote:For $h1t's sake, don't use moderators that have opinions or are interested in the subject their modding.
I am inclined to agree on this point. A moderator restricting a discussion cannot be an active participant. Even if they are able to do so with complete impartiality, their motives are likely to be questioned.

The moderating team here makes a special point of taking everyone's opinion into account. What we get is what we ask for. Because the majority of posters here value the Buddhist principle of Right Speech, Right Speech is emphasized.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Admin_PC »

alien wrote:Passive-aggressive trolls are the worst and this forum is 70% PA trolls.
As opposed to openly aggressive trolls like yourself.
alien wrote:They only exist in environments where mods enforce subjective defintions of "rude" keep people from telling them off for not contributing sincerely.
I dunno, you're still here, that means we are at least somewhat tolerant.
alien wrote:Dude, do any of you even see how little traffic this site gets? Why do you need so many moderators? What is the mod to regular user ratio anyway? 3:2?
I guess math isn't your strong suit. 1 Admin and 4 mods, 2 of whom are recent additions & still learning the ropes. That's not even 1/40th our normal users online at a given time. Your math is about as good as your spelling.
alien wrote:I'm a mod for a 5000+/ day forum.
Anonymous user bragging about his credentials... hmmm... :roll:
I moderate another forum that averages over 8,000 views a day, it has nowhere near the content of this forum.
alien wrote:Take my advice!
You haven't exactly established yourself as a dependable person whose advice we'd follow...
alien wrote:Scan for spam and personal info like SSN's that need to be made invisible, and leave the rest to work itself out.
Don't work like that, already been explained to you.
We've got credentialed people here with real expertise that we'd like to keep around to provide worthwhile content.
This forum isn't about catering to the loudest, most obnoxious people, with the most time on their hands to post the most.
This forum aims to provide worthwhile content on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism.
If you don't like it, there are plenty of other forums to check out.
alien wrote:For $h1t's sake, don't use moderators that have opinions or are interested in the subject their modding.
Kind of hard to have random people off the street with enough subject matter knowledge to moderate effectively, but then you probably have no idea what moderation is.
alien wrote:And forget being sued because some user was insulted, it would never fly in court.
Libel is actually legally prosecutable, I'm not sure where you're getting your education.
alien wrote:The real liablity is in intercepting and blocking electronic communications, which is what moderating technically is.
You mean like someone trapped behind the great firewall of China (and soon Thailand too)?
alien wrote:Blocking electronic messages can carry jail time and a website's TOS doesn't mean jack in court. My forum learned this the hard way and had to pay out to the user to avoid criminal prosecution of one of the employee mods.
Cool story bro.
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alien
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by alien »

LOL PorkChop is the admin!
Welcome to Dharmawheel.net, home of the trash talking admin Porky.

There are laws against libel, but it's a non-issue for forums because cases are virtually never successful and they would be directed to the individual posters, not the forum.

I know you have fewer than 40 regular users because I browsed the recent posts. Besides that, don't try to fool me, I can see your traffic data. Btw, your visitor count is falling sharply.

8000 views is just index bots from search engines bro. I'm talking about 5000+ posts a day. We have 14 mods right now I think.

I don't know what you mean by credentialed. Passing grade school is a credential. Don't try to make it out like this site is full of buddhist scholars, I've already read through some threads. I know what's what.

Tell the owner if they make me the admin I'll get this forum running again in a month and disappear like Mary Poppins.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

IMO you are likely just some pissed off DW users sockpuppet account. I could probably even narrow it down to a short list.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Admin_PC »

alien wrote:LOL PorkChop is the admin!
Yeah I laughed too.
FYI, the last guy who liked to call me "porky" was trashy and he got bounced before I ever became a mod.
alien wrote:There are laws against libel, but it's a non-issue for forums because cases are virtually never successful and they would be directed to the individual posters, not the forum.
As soon as you show me your law degree, I'll digest your legal advice. Until then, it's just so much hot, extra-terrestrial air.
alien wrote:I know you have fewer than 40 regular users because I browsed the recent posts. Besides that, don't try to fool me, I can see your traffic data. Btw, your visitor count is falling sharply. 8000 views is just index bots from search engines bro. I'm talking about 5000+ posts a day. We have 14 mods right now I think.
Apparently, your reading is about as strong as your mathematics and your spelling... Must not've focused on the "3 Rs" when you were in school. I said "another forum". It averages about 65,000+ uniques a month. Just as with your fantastical law advice, I'll believe this fantasy about your moderating when I see evidence. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath.
alien wrote:I don't know what you mean by credentialed.
They don't speak English where you're from? If your language is so limited, you may want to lay off the tough talk.
Credentialed = people who actually know what they're talking about (unlike you), in this case people who are actually recognized as Dharma Teachers.
alien wrote:Don't try to make it out like this site is full of buddhist scholars, I've already read through some threads. I know what's what.
You wouldn't know Dharma from an anal probe.
alien wrote:Tell the owner if they make me the admin I'll get this forum running again in a month and disappear like Mary Poppins.
LOL Sure you will.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Norwegian »

alien,

It's not just about moderating a forum with this or that many users, or traffic. I was a moderator/global moderator/administrator on e-Sangha, which was a much larger forum than Dharma Wheel, with over 25,000 members in mid 2008. DW has over 6,300 users right now. Also I'm an administrator on another forum, which is over ten times larger than what e-Sangha was. But like I said, it's not about amount of users. Nor is it about too little moderation as some have talked about, or too much moderation, as others have talked about, it's about proper moderation.

And I do think, that in order to properly moderate a forum, you should know the subject matter that the forum is dedicated to. That's one thing. Then you need to have a terms of service and rules/guidelines that goes hand in hand with the site philosophy or forum vision you're presenting. Users should understand and respect this, but not from merely observing statically from a distance, but by being an active part of it, as it is users that makes a forum. When members understand and appreciate these factors, things go smooth, or at least smoother than if there was a discord, somehow.

Another thing, is that when there are users with usernames, moderation is important, due to how human psychology manifests in groups. Completely anonymous boards have a function too, but from observing 4chan or 2ch, it's clear that there's rather obvious drawbacks with 100% anonymous boards. No moderators (for those boards that lack those), no usernames, and a much more ugly discourse manifests. Who wants to be part of that? It's not conducive to a healthy and interesting dialogue at all.

I was part of one Buddhist forum back in the days, which had no moderation of any kind. This was in 2001. The forum was Tricycle, also known as Trike. Those who were there back in those days knows how bad a forum can get when there's no moderation of any kind. It's really quite terrible...
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by dharmagoat »

:good:
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Then you need to have a terms of service and rules/guidelines that goes hand in hand with the site philosophy or forum vision you're presenting.
True. When new people check in they have a reasonable right to expect civility and decency. This might be their first foray into Dharma. It is for their sake that we need to keep things in check.

There are a number of guys here that are either credentialed (as in having undergone training in one of the traditions) or are just old-timers. My exposure to 12 step traditions tells me that they are not the most important people here. Their paths and practices are set. They need nothing from DW. It's the newbie that is important. A newbie has the right to have his questions answered with respect and in an environment without rancor. When we are behaving badly towards each other we are doing nobody a service and fragile people a distinct disservice. And we can do him the most service by moderating ourselves, which is best, or by having some designated people watching over things.

By now most of the regular posters have been in the position to moderate, some for as little as a day evidently. So by now you'd think that we would all be sensitive to those that are currently in that role. My impression is that things are generally improving, although I have no statistics to back me up.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by alien »

You guys have a moderator problem, not a user problem.

Whatever, I'll just make a better Buddhism forum, if I still feel like it tomorrow.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Admin_PC »

:coffee:
....
:zzz:
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by boda »

PorkChop wrote:
alien wrote:For $h1t's sake, don't use moderators that have opinions or are interested in the subject their modding.
Kind of hard to have random people off the street with enough subject matter knowledge to moderate effectively, but then you probably have no idea what moderation is.
The alien is correct on this point. To effectively moderate this site one only needs to know the Terms of service.

Of course it would be unreasonable, at least in my opinion, to have moderators that were not interested in the subject matter. But ideally a moderator should have the capacity to separate their personal beliefs and opinions from their moderation duties. It's plain to see when moderators fail to do this, because they break the terms of service themselves. They make ad hominem personal attacks and engage in meta-discussion about members.
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Re: Dial back the moderation a notch please

Post by Ayu »

As far as I perceive it, we are quite good in separating our personal beliefs and moderation. It's possible because we are a team, and it has to be done like this. Otherwise moderation is not really working.
boda wrote: The alien is correct on this point. To effectively moderate this site one only needs to know the Terms of service.
False. You cannot understand the point of any stirr, if you don't know about the issue.
A moderator has to learn all the time.
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