What is the location of the mind

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srivijaya
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by srivijaya »

Supramundane wrote:
srivijaya wrote:
Supramundane wrote:the mind has to be located outside the body for their to be a Buddha mind and nirvana.
A location is only a location with reference to something else.
good point! pls go on...! there is space in a vase and space outside a vase. the space is the same. is the mind inside and outside the vase too?
What about when there is no longer a vase. Where then?
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Supramundane
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Re: What is the location of the mind

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Aemilius wrote:In Buddhism there are what called sentient beings or beings with mind. It is not only humans that have mind or consciousness. The modern research on brains has produced lot of knowledge about the brains and about the exact locations in brains where perceptions, emotions etc.. take place. The animals have brains, and even tiny insects have tiny brains. There definitely seems to be a location for the mental activities in humans, larger animals, fish, crustaceans, insects, etc..
It is common sense that sense-consciousness is not on the other side of the planet when a sense organ perceives a sense object here on this side of the planet. This applies to humans, different animals, insects etc..
I'm glad you have addressed this question so directly. take the example of insects. ants create huge structures but how do they know 'what the plan is". they seem to have a common purpose. why not a common mind? at least some commonality to their minds that we do not understand. a decision can be made that thousands of them should sacrifice themselves and they do it with no regard to themselves. they will die for the collective. they are for all intents and purposes ONE BEING. what does this mean for 'the mind'...

i remember once fishing for small minnows when i was young and i caught some. the next day i went back and tried the same trick but it didn't work as well. the third day it didn't work at all. i don't even think it could have been the same fish each time. so how did they learn? they have a brain like a grain of sand... how could they know or even remember?? they must have a way of communicating to the rest of their group ... or species...(?) that is hidden to us. i'm not saying i know how this works, but it seems to be the case.

take the example of a whale compared to a school of tiny fish. there are schools of fish that are the same size as a huge whale... the school of fish have thousands of fish. the species has made a decision on some higher level that we don't understand to be in great numbers while the whale is a huge solitary creature. which is the better strategy? they are both effective. there seems to be some meta-mind controlling their actions or at least coordinating their actions. remember that in your body are dozens of different types of organisms that live there without your knowledge. they accomplish some sort of function. but if they weren't beneficial to you they wouldn't exist. they are controlled or coordinated by a higher intelligence that is beyond them. but they themselves have freedom of will and movement. they don't realize perhaps that they are subjugated to a greater goal.
all the organisms, bacteria that we call 'I' are actually a small ecosystem. we are one organism. with many minds...

perhaps all creatures on earth are one; like a Russian doll that has many inner layers. Is this not the heart of the Mahayana? there is but one creature with billions of faces. we must seek salvation together.

the question of mind is very important because it would make many things come together and make sense. if your mind is in your physical body and has no connection with anything and you die and it turns off like a light switch, that would be very simple and intuitive; however, i suspect that is not the way things are.

our nature in fact is that we are all connected and part of something much bigger. the mind is that connection. not the brain, not consciousness. but part of the mind. the deepest layer. This i think is what the SHURANGAMA SUTRA is getting at: the mind is not in the skull. it is not in a set location. once we realize this, we can no longer cling to the idea of a self, perhaps.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

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Communication makes there no need for a "metamind" or some type of "group mind".

Generals send soldiers into the battlefield, their knowledge of terrain comes from scouting reports, soldiers sacrifice themselves for the "greater cause", but the overall battle plans ultimately rest in the mind of the general. Ants are likely the same way. Though I know some have made the case for a "communal colony mind", it's really unnecessary given that ants use pheromones, sound, and touch to communicate.

Most fish communicate with body signals. They evolved to see safety in numbers. They read the movement of the group by noticing the body language of fish nearby. Even in smaller schools of fish, you occasionally see fish drift off the wrong way. Many times these "wrong way" fish are eaten, thus reinforcing natural selection of those that read the body language better.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

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Admin_PC wrote:Communication makes there no need for a "metamind" or some type of "group mind".

Generals send soldiers into the battlefield, their knowledge of terrain comes from scouting reports, soldiers sacrifice themselves for the "greater cause", but the overall battle plans ultimately rest in the mind of the general. Ants are likely the same way. Though I know some have made the case for a "communal colony mind", it's really unnecessary given that ants use pheromones, sound, and touch to communicate.

Most fish communicate with body signals. They evolved to see safety in numbers. They read the movement of the group by noticing the body language of fish nearby. Even in smaller schools of fish, you occasionally see fish drift off the wrong way. Many times these "wrong way" fish are eaten, thus reinforcing natural selection of those that read the body language better.
Very interesting that you do not believe in a communality of mind at some level, dear Amin_PC!
it would explain a lot, you must admit: why we should show compassion to all living beings, because hurting others is tantamount to hurting ourselves! it explains the difference of the Mahayana over other forms of Buddhism, it would explain the part of us that survives death... karma becomes easy to fathom once one accepts that part of our mind is not our own...

how do you reconcile your views on the mind with Buddhism then? if there is no part of the mind that is outside the mind, then how can we speak of a Buddhacitta?

thanks for discussing this topic.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

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Supramundane wrote:it would explain a lot, you must admit: why we should show compassion to all living beings, because hurting others is tantamount to hurting ourselves!
I think when you've ceased with the ideas of "I", "me", or "mine" - pain & suffering are just pain and suffering, regardless of who's feeling them. The sutras say we should see ourselves reflected in all beings, not that we are one in mind with all beings.
Supramundane wrote:it explains the difference of the Mahayana over other forms of Buddhism,
The difference between Mahayana (and Vajrayana) and the other form of Buddhism is bodhicitta (the aspiration for awakening for the sake of all sentient beings) and the 2-fold emptiness of not only self, but phenomena as well (which is directly related to bodhicitta).
Supramundane wrote:it would explain the part of us that survives death...
I'm not sure about that
Supramundane wrote:karma becomes easy to fathom once one accepts that part of our mind is not our own...
Actually, the teachings on karma negate the idea of communal mind. If we were all one, then one person gaining enlightenment would make us all enlightened. If we weren't separate, then I would experience the results of someone else's intentions - if you study, I don't get smarter.
Supramundane wrote:how do you reconcile your views on the mind with Buddhism then?
I'm actually sticking strictly with orthodox Mahayana Buddhism from the sutras. Communal mind is like something out of Advaita Vedanta.
Supramundane wrote:if there is no part of the mind that is outside the mind, then how can we speak of a Buddhacitta?
There is nothing in the 3 realms that is outside of mind, even bodhicitta. From the Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra:
As I think of the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm, these three realms are formed by my mind. I can see what I think of. The mind forms a Buddha for itself to see; the mind is the Buddha mind. As my mind forms a Buddha, my mind is the Buddha; my mind is the Tathāgata; my mind is my body.’

“Although the mind sees a Buddha, the mind neither knows itself nor sees itself. The mind with perceptions is saṁsāra; the mind without perceptions is nirvāṇa. Dharmas as perceived are not something pleasurable. They are empty thoughts, nothing real. This is what Bodhisattvas see as they abide in this samādhi.”
Then the Buddha spoke in verse:

The mind does not know itself; the mind does not see itself.
The mind that fabricates perceptions is false; the mind without perceptions is nirvāṇa.
Dharmas are not firm, only founded upon thinking.
Those who see emptiness with this understanding are free from perceptions and expectations.
Supramundane wrote:thanks for discussing this topic.
Anytime. I just hope you find this at all productive. Maybe someone else will weigh in with more convincing points than I've provided.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Supramundane »

yes very productive my friend.
i think it is natural to get frustrated when something is clear to us and when we explain it to others we expect that they will immidiately agree and have the same opinion we do. when they don't it is a good wake-up call; it means i will have to go back to the drawing board and see where i went wrong: whether it is the idea that is wrong or simply 'semantics', the way i explained it.

i do not mean a communal mind. i used the example of language because it is an adequate, though not perfect metaphor. if someone gets a Nobel Prize in literature, it does not mean i get it too... language is a 'communal' possession but it doesn't allow telepathy or communal thoughts. it just means that there is something outside of us as well as inside us that allows language to exist and be used. when we die language will still be there. if we all die it will die too. so where is it?

thanks for your examples: especially the last one. you are very well read. i have to increase my reading.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Supramundane »

srivijaya wrote:
Supramundane wrote:
srivijaya wrote: A location is only a location with reference to something else.
good point! pls go on...! there is space in a vase and space outside a vase. the space is the same. is the mind inside and outside the vase too?
What about when there is no longer a vase. Where then?
good question... i was hoping you would tell me! :)
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srivijaya
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by srivijaya »

Supramundane wrote:
srivijaya wrote:
Supramundane wrote: good point! pls go on...! there is space in a vase and space outside a vase. the space is the same. is the mind inside and outside the vase too?
What about when there is no longer a vase. Where then?
good question... i was hoping you would tell me! :)
I wish I could :smile:
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Aemilius »

Admin_PC wrote:
Supramundane wrote:how do you reconcile your views on the mind with Buddhism then?
I'm actually sticking strictly with orthodox Mahayana Buddhism from the sutras. Communal mind is like something out of Advaita Vedanta.
According to Buddha, "Mind is empty of mind" and, "in the mind there is no mind".
I don't know its exact place in the sutras, but it should be a quotation of Buddha's words, according to venerable teachers in 1980's.
It has been explained to mean that there is no separate, independent mind anywhere at all in the wheel of becoming or beyond the wheel of becoming.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Aemilius »

Supramundane wrote:
Aemilius wrote:In Buddhism there are what called sentient beings or beings with mind. It is not only humans that have mind or consciousness. The modern research on brains has produced lot of knowledge about the brains and about the exact locations in brains where perceptions, emotions etc.. take place. The animals have brains, and even tiny insects have tiny brains. There definitely seems to be a location for the mental activities in humans, larger animals, fish, crustaceans, insects, etc..
It is common sense that sense-consciousness is not on the other side of the planet when a sense organ perceives a sense object here on this side of the planet. This applies to humans, different animals, insects etc..
I'm glad you have addressed this question so directly. take the example of insects. ants create huge structures but how do they know 'what the plan is". they seem to have a common purpose. why not a common mind? at least some commonality to their minds that we do not understand. a decision can be made that thousands of them should sacrifice themselves and they do it with no regard to themselves. they will die for the collective. they are for all intents and purposes ONE BEING. what does this mean for 'the mind'...

i remember once fishing for small minnows when i was young and i caught some. the next day i went back and tried the same trick but it didn't work as well. the third day it didn't work at all. i don't even think it could have been the same fish each time. so how did they learn? they have a brain like a grain of sand... how could they know or even remember?? they must have a way of communicating to the rest of their group ... or species...(?) that is hidden to us. i'm not saying i know how this works, but it seems to be the case.

take the example of a whale compared to a school of tiny fish. there are schools of fish that are the same size as a huge whale... the school of fish have thousands of fish. the species has made a decision on some higher level that we don't understand to be in great numbers while the whale is a huge solitary creature. which is the better strategy? they are both effective. there seems to be some meta-mind controlling their actions or at least coordinating their actions. remember that in your body are dozens of different types of organisms that live there without your knowledge. they accomplish some sort of function. but if they weren't beneficial to you they wouldn't exist. they are controlled or coordinated by a higher intelligence that is beyond them. but they themselves have freedom of will and movement. they don't realize perhaps that they are subjugated to a greater goal.
all the organisms, bacteria that we call 'I' are actually a small ecosystem. we are one organism. with many minds...

perhaps all creatures on earth are one; like a Russian doll that has many inner layers. Is this not the heart of the Mahayana? there is but one creature with billions of faces. we must seek salvation together.

the question of mind is very important because it would make many things come together and make sense. if your mind is in your physical body and has no connection with anything and you die and it turns off like a light switch, that would be very simple and intuitive; however, i suspect that is not the way things are.

our nature in fact is that we are all connected and part of something much bigger. the mind is that connection. not the brain, not consciousness. but part of the mind. the deepest layer. This i think is what the SHURANGAMA SUTRA is getting at: the mind is not in the skull. it is not in a set location. once we realize this, we can no longer cling to the idea of a self, perhaps.
The behaviour of Common Minnows happens to be an object of studies. It is quite interesting, they emit an alarm substance which serves an altruistic function, etc... Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_minnow
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by jet.urgyen »

Supramundane wrote:Dear Friends, i am looking for information on determining the location of the mind. i found an interesting dialogue in the Surangama Sutra on the subject. is there any other dialogue or discussion on its location?

if we think of language, is that a good metaphor for the Mind? we 'possess' a language but actually it is a collective possession. we use a language, but it is there before we are born and there after we die. we refer to it; we use it; if two people are speaking they will often ask each other what is the meaning of a certain word... it is evidently something that has a nature and existence that is beyond us... but where is its location? nowhere and everywhere... can the mind be thought of in a similar fashion?
thx
where there are thoughts, there is mind.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Punya »

Very interesting that you do not believe in a communality of mind at some level, dear Amin_PC!
A discussion about whether the mind is individual:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... f53a16dad2
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Supramundane »

Punya wrote:
Very interesting that you do not believe in a communality of mind at some level, dear Amin_PC!
A discussion about whether the mind is individual:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=19231
"The ocean of birth and rebirth", "the interdependence of all minds", this is what i was looking for.
Thank you so much!
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Punya »

Yeah, well I guess we can take whatever we like from that thread to confirm our own position. With all due respect to other posters, it's the views of Malcolm, Cone and Astus that I take as something approaching authoritive from a Buddhist perspective, because they are consistent with what my teachers have said. Which is not to discount the comments of the Admin_PC above.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by jet.urgyen »

does mind has form, color, smell, taste, or can it be touched? is it big, small, wide, open, closed?

is it something in first place? we can imagine anything, that's mind?

does it has center? border? up limit? down limit?

it's a quality? where did mind surged? is it a concept, an idea?

does ideas makes notion of mind and or mind makes notion of ideas? mm i see that ideas constiutes what we call mind. so where are ideas there is what we call mind.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by JinxedP »

There is not 'one mind', but many different subminds in the brain that produce different conscious states. All these different conscious states produced by the various subminds is only woven into a single narrative after the fact, which gives the illusion of a smooth conscious experience.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Punya »

In Buddhism, mind is understood to be continuous, passing from life to life. It is not equate to the brain. The Sutra referred to earlier in this thread explains this.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Ambrosius80 »

In fact, there really is no mind at all according to Yogachara.

What we humans perceive as "mind" (Eg. the place where we form conclusions, think about things and objects etc.) is actually just a sum of the five aggregates: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and sensing by touching. All of these together define the human existence and form the "mind", that is the sixth consciousness. The sum of these six consciousnesses forms a deluded, seventh consciousness. This consciousness is the one most ignorant humans call the "self". However, it is of course in a constant flux, as the other consciousnesses forming it change every moment.

The only truly "existent" consciousness is the eight consciousness, also known as the storehouse consciousness. This consciousness "stores" all the expressions it receives via the other consciousnesses, and stores them as karma that will take effect later, possibly only in future lives. This is the only consciousness that passes from this life to the next. All that remains of the "self" in the end is just karma created while alive.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Matt J »

You've got a contradiction here. On the one hand, you've got nihilism, and on the other, eternalism.
Ambrosius80 wrote:In fact, there really is no mind at all according to Yogachara.

[snip]

The only truly "existent" consciousness is the eight consciousness, also known as the storehouse consciousness.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
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Re: What is the location of the mind

Post by Ambrosius80 »

Matt J wrote:You've got a contradiction here. On the one hand, you've got nihilism, and on the other, eternalism.
I purposely tried to simplify my post and leave certain madhyamaka aspects out of it, but if you will...
Yes, the mind both exists and then again doesn't really exist at the same time, as is evident by my presentation. The aggregates that form it change from moment to moment.
No, there is no eternalist contradiction as the storehouse consciousness changes every single moment and is not unchanging in any way.
"What we have now is the best. He who can never be satisfied is a poor man, no matter how much he owns.

What you have results from karmic causes that you created, and what you'll gain hinges on karmic causes that you're creating."
-Master Sheng Yen
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