Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby padma norbu » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
tatpurusa wrote:Dzogchenpa.


Ditto.


I actually usually mentioned Dzogchen really quickly, knowing they won't have ever heard of it or remember what I said, so it's not really blabbing about dzogchen (which is something we're not supposed to do!)
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:15 pm

It would probably be easier to say that you are a Buddhist (if you are, of course) than to say you are a Dzogchenpa. Obviously their very next question would be: "what's a dzrongrunpda?" Seems to me that you are looking for trouble.

Anyway, I consider myself a Buddhist, so if anybody asks (which they rarely do) I see no problem in saying "yes". Seems to me that your inability to answer the question honestly (either affirmitavely or negatively) arises from your own ambivalence regarding the issue.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
There is no generic "Buddhism".

Of course there is.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:22 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
There is no generic "Buddhism".

Of course there is.


Of course there is not.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:26 pm

So you believe that there is no core of beliefs and practices that can be defined as Buddhist? That there is nothing that all Buddhists can agree on? Dependent origination, for example?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:33 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:So you believe that there is no core of beliefs and practices that can be defined as Buddhist? That there is nothing that all Buddhists can agree on? Dependent origination, for example?


I didn't say that -- I said there was no generic Buddhism.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:40 pm

Malcolm wrote: I didn't say that -- I said there was no generic Buddhism.

It doesn't matter as far as the situation goes,
when talking to someone who is not a Buddhist,
saying you are a Buddhist or saying you practice Buddhism.
"which Buddhism"...which branch or type, in such a conversation would not make any difference.

But just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "generic Buddhism"?

If you mean that there isn't a particular school or lineage or sect called "Generic" then you are correct.

I think there may have been an "Amibguous School" and also a "Rather Vague lineage" but those two sects died out, I think, because nobody was really sure who the head monk was.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:45 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
But just out of curiosity, what do you mean by "generic Buddhism"?

If you mean that there isn't a particular school or lineage or sect called "Generic" then you are correct.



There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:21 am

Malcolm wrote: There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism.

How did you determine this?
There are, in fact, four basic tenets common to all schools of Buddhism.
They are commonly referred to as the Four Seals:

All conditioned phenomena are impermanent.
The nature of conditioned phenomena is suffering (duhhka)
All phenomena lack inherent existence
The true nature of the mind is free from suffering (nirvana)


I think, this has been pretty consistent for 2500 years or so.
Any teaching that contradicts these cannot be called a valid Buddhist teaching.

Of course, anybody can claim to be an authentic buddhist teacher and make up anything they want,
but that doesn't mean they are, and If someone claims to be a teacher of Buddhism,
and teaches the opposite of these four,
then they cannot be regarded as an authentic teacher.

Likewise, not all Buddhists believe exactly the same things,
there are things that some schools teach that other do not
and "What buddhism teaches" and "What buddhists believe" is not always the same thing.
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Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:40 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Malcolm wrote: There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism.

How did you determine this?
There are, in fact, four basic tenets common to all schools of Buddhism.
They are commonly referred to as the Four Seals:

All conditioned phenomena are impermanent.
The nature of conditioned (*should be afflicted) phenomena is suffering (duhhka)
All phenomena lack inherent existence (*should be not-self)
The true nature of the mind is free from suffering (nirvana) (*should be nirvana is peaceful)




No, sorry to contradict you but...

The Theravadins do not have a formulation using the the fourth seal. That only exists in Mahāyāna.

Theravadas use the three seals: anicca, dukkha and anatta.

What is interesting here is of course when seeking to find a common ground among Buddhist schools we depend on doctrines also found in Hindu schools such as Saṃkhya.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:42 am

ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:49 am



That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby ijaceebo » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:01 am

Malcolm wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.


Hi there everyone! I'm new here and just learning. Out of genuine curiosity and not doubt, what ways would the contents of that link differ from Dzogchen? I know nothing about Dzogchen so I would be very interested to know. Thank you. :namaste:
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
No, sorry to contradict you but...

The Theravadins do not have a formulation using the the fourth seal. That only exists in Mahāyāna.

Theravadas use the three seals: anicca, dukkha and anatta.

What is interesting here is of course when seeking to find a common ground among Buddhist schools we depend on doctrines also found in Hindu schools such as Saṃkhya.


You said There is in fact no true standard set of Buddhist doctrines
that universally apply to all instances of what we call Buddhism,
and yet you have listed three of the four I mentioned.

Theravadins merely assert that nirvana (or nibbana) is
not a state of being, such as the establishment of a peaceful mind, as a kind of remaining thing.

But we could substitute "the end of suffering is nibbana" for the fourth thing that all Buddhist schools teach.

If you scratch deep enough, you will also find in the Mahayana that ultimately, "mind' is not a thing either,
but refers to awareness free confusion and the cause of suffering.

Let me ask you this: do you suppose an arhat is aware he is an arhat?

I don't know why that last part is interesting.
You could also say that some of the vows in Buddhism show up in the ten Commandments.
So what?
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:15 am

Malcolm wrote:


That works if you are a Theravadin or Mahāyāni, it does not work so well if you are a Dzogchenpa.

Damn those Dzogchenpas! Always making trouble!

:smile:
ཨོཾ་ཏཱ་རེ་ཏུཏྟ་རེ་ཏུ་རེ་སྭཱཧཱ༔
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:17 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:and yet you have listed three of the four I mentioned.



I didn't claim they were universal in Buddhism. You did.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:and yet you have listed three of the four I mentioned.

I didn't claim they were universal in Buddhism. You did.

Yes, I did, and they are.
And again,
do you suppose an arhat is aware he is an arhat?

Thank you.
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Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:25 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:and yet you have listed three of the four I mentioned.

I didn't claim they were universal in Buddhism. You did.

Yes, and they are.


So all I have to do is provide one countervailing example?


And again,
do you suppose an arhat is aware he is an arhat?


Yes, of course. For example, the Buddha.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:28 am

Malcolm wrote: So all I have to do is provide one countervailing example?

...in order to do what?

And again,
do you suppose an arhat is aware he is an arhat?


Malcolm wrote: Yes, of course. For example, the Buddha.

Then tell me, by what cognitive means is the arhat aware that he is an arhat?
.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Denying you're a Buddhist to outsiders

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:35 am

...in order to do what?


In order to demonstrate that these three or four are not universal amongst so called "Buddhists".

Then tell me, by what cognitive means is the arhat aware that he is an arhat?


His mind, what else? Surely you are not going to now suggest that arhats lack the five aggregates?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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