YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Asking about non parajika expulsion - Dhamma Wheel

Asking about non parajika expulsion

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby whynotme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:50 am

Hi,

I read in vinaya, sometimes the Buddha said if someone killed an arahant, raped bhikkhuni, or did many other actions (I don't remember exactly), then he said, if that one hasn't ordained, then isn't allowed to ordain, if that one is ordained, then is expelled. IIRC, there were cases when people killed arahant, raped bhikkhuni before ordination, then the Buddha didn't allow ordain them.

Are those actions equal to parajika? I.e, even if they somehow can get the ordination, if others find out their actions, would they be expelled?

Regards
Please stop following me

User avatar
Hickersonia
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:40 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hickersonia » Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:51 am

Hickersonia
http://hickersonia.wordpress.com/


"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:02 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:13 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:37 am

Interessting share Cittasanto,

Just wander where this interpretations are coming from. They seem to be somehow absolut and authoritarian.

In case of "a person who poses as a bhikkhu without having been ordained" would even hinder a reordination wouldn't it? So if one ordinates amoung one sect and likes to reordinate amoung another, it would be somehow difficult if he posed to be a Bhikkhu before. Or is the "a bhikkhu who has ordained in another religion without first giving up his status as a bhikkhu" the emergency exit in this case?

Is "Bhikkhu" somehow defined?

Btw, what does BMC1 and BMC2 mean?

This is also interesting: "a person who has dishonestly caused a schism in the Saṅgha, knowing or suspecting that his position was contrary to the Dhamma-Vinaya", as far as I know is it not possible to cause a schism in the sangha as layman. Not to speak what dishonestly means (speaking not the truth?). Might this be maybe a case, why laypeople are traditional taught to stay away from Vinaya issues?
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:07 am

Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:24 am

Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby whynotme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:25 am

Many thanks Cittasanto

@ Hanzze, those commentaries actually have their root in the Vinaya. Vinaya likes suttas tells stories and those rules appeared there, the commentaries just summarized them. It is in fact the Buddha's words.

Regards
Please stop following me

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:28 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:33 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby whynotme » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:49 am

Please stop following me

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:52 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:38 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby DAWN » Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:38 pm

Thanks you Cittasanto for your quatations,

I would like to ask one question to one who knows the response

a person who poses as a bhikkhu without having been ordained,

what is condition that makes one go under this statement?

If it's a living like a bikkhu, a living a simple life, and/or train your self in vinaya without be ordained
Or is identify with a label "bikkhu", telling to peoples i'am a ordainded bikkhu give me dana, listen to me etc ?

Thanks is someone can clarify it
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:51 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:09 pm

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:17 pm

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:26 pm

I was speaking to the last person I spoke with whynotme the thread starter.

non parajika expulsions have been talked about
The vinaya is quite clear on what it is talking about.
good-bye


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Hanzze » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:35 pm

I am sure that the Vinaya (or better what the Buddha meant) is quite clear, but I am not sure if we get the message in the right way. Texts seems to be often so straight and takeable, but if we start to reflect a little more about it or even compare them with personal situations, some interpretation are quick simply useless and it would be better if people who do not just make it to an kind of hobby are not left hanging in the air.

If the intention to talk about is just inquisitiveness (in german "Neugierde" - literary "greed or desire for new") that such a surface investigation might be enoght.

In the sphere of reconciliation and reuniting the Sangha some points here are very needed to clear as they are simply a hindrence if they are like told for expample.
Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Asking about non parajika expulsion

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:49 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


Return to “Ordination and Monastic Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine