the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:23 am

The thread is "Low carb vegan diet."

Can we ban Thrasymachus from the thread? Anyone he doesn't agree with is a huckster or a liar. Not worth talking to.

But, for anyone else buying this China Study bullcrap Thrasymachus is peddling...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... study.aspx
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:27 am

Thrasymachus wrote:@dzogchungpa:
I am not your research nanny, I gave enough sources and resources already, ask your the bro-scientists who you seem to favor in such exchanges for their bro sources.

I dont even know what a bro-scientist is, but obviously you don't know what you're talking about. If you make a statement, be prepared to back it up. I asked you a very simple question.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:29 am

No doubt this geneticist is another huckster and the study she clearly explains here is all lies:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... onger.html
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:44 am

Vegan diets are not about low-carb. No respected health authority in the vegan community from Dr. McDougall to Joel Fuhrman, Esselsteyn, Colin Campbell, etc. advocate low-carb. There is no one, period. Vegans are not the foolish mainstream that can be easily mislead. There are junk food vegans, but they just don't care about health and don't presume to unlike the low-carb crowd. Thus no one can market low-carb to vegans and have success.

There is so much known about nutrition today, that you cannot post the nonsense of notorious cholesterol denialism of the unqualified Chris Masterjohn who is on part with flat earthers:
Dr Michael Greger wrote:What about the “cholesterol myth”?

I think the issue was best summarized in a medical journal editorial entitled Cholesterol Myth Club on Par with Flat Earth Society that read: “as mixed up as Flat Earth Society members obviously are, at least you can laugh their dumb idea off, and if you want to believe the Earth is flat, this view is not going to cause serious problems like… coronary artery disease.”


His anecdotes where he likely pretends to be vegetarian and vegan cannot compare to the largest population based nutritional study ever conducted. Only to glycogen starved low-carbers does that make sense.

@dzogchungpa:
Again I am not your research nanny and you asked an impossible to answer question in the first place.

Your bro-scientist ally for example would have us ignore the largest epidemiological study in modern nutrition research, the China Study conducted startingin the early 1980s and focus instead on the anecdotes of chronically sick, overweight Westerners who always battle to lose weight, but gain it back and yet favor low-carb because they lost weight on it initially. Ask him to prove his nonsense backed by the anecdotes of Chris Masterjohn. But you won't do that, instead you will play the wise guy.
Last edited by Thrasymachus on Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:47 am

Thrasymachus wrote:@dzogchungpa:
Again I am not your research nanny and you asked an impossible to answer question in the first place.

Dearest Thrasymachus, you said:
Most large populations that have been trim and free of the chronic diseases most Westerners are afflicted with today have consumed a majority of their calories from carbs.

I asked:
How many large populations that have been trim and free of the chronic diseases most Westerners are afflicted with today have there been, and how many consumed a majority of their calories from carbs?

If my question is impossible to answer, how do you know that what you said is true?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1460
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:48 am

I forget if I mentioned Drew Carey. I know I've been thinking of it, but can't remember if I mentioned him.

Not only did he lower his weight and cholesterol, but he cured his diabetes with a low carb diet.

Image
Image
Image
Image
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:00 am

Again desperate low-carbers want to stick to the anecdotes. How desperate are they? I think it is the macro-nutrient starvation.

How many rural Chinese in the early 1980's covered in the China study were slim? Of course you want to ignore them, let us focus on anecdotes from fat Drew Carey who went on a restrictive diet and excessive cardio regime. Most Westerners who lose weight in such a manner gain it back and then some:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/36716808/ns/h ... -all-back/
You cannot eat 1,200 calories while avoiding carbs forever and workout excessively, it just will never be sustainable.

But let us ignore the lifestyle of poor people who cannot afford to be full-time meat addicts in say rural China where having a healthy body mass index was normal and sustainable for life. Let us focus on celebrities who often use stomach bands and chemical help and whiny Westerners who always try to lose weight with the latest fad... It is just so sad.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:08 am

Oh, I see, anecdotal evidence is not okay when I do it, but it is okay when you do it? Makes sense. You're a good debater.

Oh yeah, you forgot something:

padma norbu wrote:No doubt this geneticist is another huckster and the study she clearly explains here is all lies:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... onger.html


Let me whet your appetite. Here is the title of that article:
Can cutting carbohydrates from your diet make you live longer?
It's an extraordinary claim. But scientists say you can extend your life AND stay fit throughout old age - just by a change of diet that switches on your youth gene...
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:08 am

This NY Times article talks about the secret to extreme longevity, interviewing a lady who is closing in on 100 years old and enjoying great health - no diabetes, high blood pressure, or high cholesterol. Among other things, she attributes her long lasting good health to a low carb lifestyle.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/healt ... wt=nytimes

But, this is not really news to anyone with a sense of history. People started getting sick in huge numbers shortly after the government introduced the incredibly flawed Food Pyramid and began advising people to east more grains and cut way back on saturated fat. My parents and grandparents all knew the secret to losing any extra weight was to avoid bread. It was that simple. Meat and potatoes for diner, eggs and bacon for breakfast every day. Until some genius decided the culprit was animal fat based on flawed interpretation of data. It only took 40-50 years to start setting the record straight again...

Eggs and Bacon for breakfast
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... t-day.html

Low Grain and Carbohydrate Diets Treat Hypoglycemia, Heart Disease, Diabetes Cancer and Nearly ALL Chronic Illness
http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohyd ... grains.htm

Carbs and Cancer:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/757713

Beating cancer by killing the carbs:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthscienc ... -recovery/

Beating epilepsy by killing the carbs:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthscienc ... -Epilepsy/
Last edited by padma norbu on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:15 am

This is desperate low-carb logic:
Find one old person who is in bad shape with lots of replacement parts and ignore that most of what Dan Buettner termed blue zones are full of centenarians who hardly consume any animal products.

Find one fat celebrity who for an amazing three years managed to lose weight in an unhealthy manner(constipation, bad breath, headaches) and ignore tens of millions of trim, healthier rice eaters in Asia who cannot afford to use an automobile or eat many animal products.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:18 am

Eggs and Bacon for breakfast
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... t-day.html

Low Grain and Carbohydrate Diets Treat Hypoglycemia, Heart Disease, Diabetes Cancer and Nearly ALL Chronic Illness
http://www.mercola.com/article/carbohyd ... grains.htm

Carbs and Cancer:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/757713

Beating cancer by killing the carbs:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthscienc ... -recovery/

Beating epilepsy by killing the carbs:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/healthscienc ... -Epilepsy/
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:22 am

Thrasymachus wrote:This is desperate low-carb logic:
Find one old person who is in bad shape with lots of replacement parts and ignore that most of what Dan Buettner termed blue zones are full of centenarians who hardly consume any animal products.

Find one fat celebrity who for an amazing three years managed to lose weight in an unhealthy manner(constipation, bad breath, headaches) and ignore tens of millions of trim, healthier rice eaters in Asia who cannot afford to use an automobile or eat many animal products.


You seem to be the desperate one here. Desperately avoiding anything that proves you wrong and generally not playing by the same rules you hold your opponents to. Find a couple pudgy low carb dieters and ignore all the successful ones. Keep spouting off China Study drivel utterly clueless about the flaws in the study.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:34 am

Excuse me, try to post a photo of Cordain and Atkins where they are not fat, lol.

Their disciples are no better either, as you can lose weight by calorie restriction and sickness, which is the only way those fad diets work, but try to be calorie restricted via will power for a lifetime. Hence almost everyone gains it back. The only skinny low carbers are those who can be so despite what they eat. And even then the years will catch up with them most likely. I have no picture in black and white of rural Greeks in my family that were fat. Yet their descendants today think being fat is a natural consequence of aging, even though when they look at family albums there are no fat people(unless they were from a rich family). That is what meat addiction does, it perverts your worldview and you think a consequence of dietary choice is natural and inevitable.

Your approach and that of low carbers is a joke. So many nations like the Inuit, Mongolians and Tibetans lived in harsh climates and ate mostly animal products because they had no other choice. They were unhealthy, fat(unless they had parasites which caveman bro-scientists like to ignore was often the case) and lived short, brutal lives. There is so much that is known you cannot present the nonsense that you are presenting as truth without resorting to chicanery.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:49 am

And now... the pièce de résistance!

The real China Study.
Image
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/canc ... ina-study/

Too Long, Didn't Read version:
"I knew that both Anthony Colpo and Chris Masterjohn had done their own critiques of the original data, so I figured, what the hell, I’ll take a look at the ‘real’ China study (as opposed to the popular book of that name) and do one too. And I’ll critique the popular book, which I figured was a rehash of the China project, while I’m at it...

...Get some real data. I discovered later that I wasn’t the only one who wondered that. Even some of Dr. Campbell’s own colleagues abandoned him to this study and told him it would be worthless...

...In other words, the China study is an observational study comparing one variable to another (univariate correlations) and, as such, meaningless. And this from the man’s own pen...

In 1976 author Mary McCarthy famously said live on the Dick Cavett show of her rival Lillian Hellman: "Every word she writes is a lie, including ‘and’ and ‘the’." I feel much the same way about The China Study. Except it’s not really a lie, it’s an obfuscation.

In fact, in my studied opinion, The China Study is a masterpiece of obfuscation.

It is obfuscatory in so many ways it could truly qualify as a work of obfuscatory genius. It would be difficult for a mere mortal to pen so much confusion, ambiguity, distortion and misunderstanding in what is basically a book-length argument for a personal opinion masquerading as hard science.


Not that Thrac will read this article, but it gets quite good after this and he goes overturning the obfuscations one by one. You say vegans aren't an easy bunch to fool? HA! As this author says in the critique: "It was pretty apparent that the disease of non-critical thinking was at epidemic proportions."

Other popular criticisms:
http://anthonycolpo.com/the-china-study ... -nonsense/
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-ch ... or-fallac/
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:52 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Excuse me, try to post a photo of Cordain and Atkins where they are not fat, lol.

Interesting defense you've got here. Now we are back to anecdotal evidence being okay? If these 2 are fat, then that means you are correct? What about the rest of the non-fat lifelong low-carb dieters? Hmmm.

"William Leith, an writer who interviewed him around the time of his cardiac arrest stated that "he looks to be just under 6 feet tall and around 200 lbs – not skinny, not thin, but definitely not fat." A report from Atkins Nutritionals states that he played tennis competitively and that his weight was frequently checked, and in the years before his death was below 195, and six feet tall. And a medical report at the time of his admission to the hospital, which was later made public by his widow, states that he was 195 lbs on admission to the hospital."
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/atkins ... sdeath.htm
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:13 am

Thrasymachus opined:
@Qing Tian:
I would not say that as you seem to be a fundamentalist on nonsense. Carbs are carbs. There are certain foods and certain ways of processing foods that should be avoided, that is all. Yes to baked potatos, no to French fries which are glycated and thus have AGEs(advanced glycation end products). Yes to whole wheat, since it has its fiber intact, no to white flour since it is so finely ground it will shoot up the blood sugar. This carb-phobia from the Atkins, Paleo, etc. crowd helps no one, except those making money off selling bad dietary advice.

Low carb means low carb, stop spouting nonsense and misleading people with your dangerous advice if you have no clue yourself.


I was keeping it general because I am aware that most people do not have a background in biomedical sciences. Also, I was speaking from personal experience of a dietary change that has reduced my weight to an almost ideal point and at which I am feeling healthier than I have in years. While this is anecdotal - in the sense that it is not from a peer-reviewed study - it is also a real demonstration of change and effect. It pains me to say that I find your accusation grossly insulting and patronising in lieu of the rather transparent position I have taken here.

Incidentally, if we are talking nonsense, let's look at this segment:

There are certain foods and certain ways of processing foods that should be avoided, that is all. Yes to baked potatos, no to French fries which are glycated and thus have AGEs(advanced glycation end products). Yes to whole wheat, since it has its fiber intact, no to white flour since it is so finely ground it will shoot up the blood sugar.


In general (please note this qualification) if someone is diabetic then potato is exceptionally bad for blood glucose levels and control, irrespective of how it is cooked. Although as with most things, moderation is fine.

Also, Thrasymachus, please note that I qualified my earlier post by stating that I am not on a 'low carb diet' as promoted by various... well, promoters, but on a lowered carb diet. That is to say that my carb intake was excessively high and now it is probably around 60% of what is considered a good average. The percentage of carbs any person needs in their daily diet varies by type. Generalisation is not generally helpful!

PS. I too would suggest that Thrasymachus is banned from this thread. Frankly speaking I am unsure of his purpose on this site. I don't recall seeing a single positive, encouraging post of his. While this extreme negativity is often educational it is also largely unwelcome.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:40 am

Here is a forum for Veggie low-carbers:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=109

And here's a low-carb vegan Pinterest board:
http://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q ... rb%20vegan

Probably easier than trying to get any useful information here since we've got a troll who doesn't want to leave...

For some reason Thras didn't mention Nell Stephenson:

Image
Image
Image
Image

So fat.

She's the author of Paleoista. She started paleo in 2005 and says she felt better within 3 days of starting the paleo diet.

Here she is explaining the popular low-carb paleo diet on Dr. Oz ...right next to Dr. Cordain, whose weight Thras DID mention. Hmm!:
Image

Here's a video of the Dr. Oz appearance for anyone under the mistaken impression that paleo or low-carb is the Atkins diet (Thras, you might want to watch this):
http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/paleo-diet-craze-pt-1
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:54 am

...or Mark Sisson, author of Primal Blueprint at age 58...
Image

Uh oh, that's 2 to 2. I guess we have a tie. Now we don't know if low carb diets work or not til one of us gets a 3rd author's picture. :rolling:
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Nemo » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:15 pm

"No vegan diet, No vegan powers!"

hmmm, yes. The Vegan Inquisition is worthy of ridicule. Once bitten admitting that different diets work for different people is blasphemy.
User avatar
Nemo
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby tidathep » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:48 pm

TaTa wrote:I need to gain some weight!!! HELP!!!! =P

-----------
Sawaddee Ka...TaTa,

My 2 single neighbors love to eat pizzas...I always see a car with Domino Pizza logo at the front of his driveway. My neighbors are very fat....If you really want to gain weight..please eat pizzas.

tidathep :tongue:
User avatar
tidathep
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:26 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: daverupa, deff, Indrajala, Osho and 13 guests

>