the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: ex-vegans

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:04 pm

The point of that fictional scenario was that in the most loaded scenario in favor of a bicycle, the cyclist cannot kill or even cause much more than superficial damage to the hood, bumper or windshield of an automobile(after the cyclists' body crashes it in). The average American car weighs a bloated 4000 lbs! The average American male weighs 200 lb, mostly because they are fat, because they are not vegans and massive wannabe carnivores... There is no equality between a pedestrian and a motor vehicle or a bicyclist and a car. If they occupy the same space, it will always be a massacre for everyone who does not happen to be in the car.

When a pedestrian who can only travel a mere 3 mph wants to cross the street in the most efficient manner possible, in a straight line from where he is, not at a curb or a crosswalk, it is considered jaywalking a legally punishable offense... That is apartheid and legal discrimination for the most inefficient form of human locomotion possible

What you are talking about is like supposing an American drone operator is a good guy because he is superficially nice to everyone, says "hi", opens doors. And that a vegan pacifist is immoral because he is a bit of a prick verbally to everyone. Well one will always be a professional murderer, despite his formal niceties. Being around motor vehicles and just crossing streets full of them is low level psychological terror, a blast of pollution in your face, a noise hazard, etc. People just ignore this in our society because they have been acculturated to it, "it is the way it has always been." But if you took an uncontacted Amazonian tribal member and put them near a dense highway, they would have the sense to be terrified and think, "WHY!" That is the reality and not I want to feel good about myself because I consume mythical spiritual packets and invent scenarios of equality involving good cyclist and bad cyclist and good motorists and bad motorists that don't exist in reality. The motor vehicle is innately bad, just like an occupying, conquering soldier in a war.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: ex-vegans

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:44 pm

Jaywalking? :thinking: Must be an American thing I guess.

The manner in which you wrote your argument suggests that cyclists can do whatever they like and it is the entire responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they are safe on the road. My point is that responsibility cuts both ways. If we have to have cars AND cyclists occupying the same space then BOTH must show due consideration to each other irrespective of the inequality of transport type. In an ideal world I would agree with you, but this is a far from ideal world and so I have to work with what is here and now.

Perhaps the next time a cyclist swerves dangerously without looking into the path of a motor vehicle, he/she should seriously consider the root of their subsequent anger. Same goes for motorists.

There is nothing innately bad about cars... they are just things that embody useful properties and destructive properties. In the current societal environment I bet you wouldn't be decrying the destructive properties of the ambulance that whisks you away to the emergency department? There are always ways of loading an argument to make it seem that one side is 'innately bad'. And that is a prejudice.


EDIT:
What predominates in the English speaking countries is exactly a system of transportation apartheid that disadvantages and disenfranchises everyone who out of poverty, personal choice or ill-circumstance cannot or will not use a motor vehicle.


Do you seriously believe that the system of transportation is deliberatley set up to disadvantage and disenfranchise these groups? Seriously?
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Jainarayan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:10 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Low carb diets are nonsense and unhealthy. What makes you fat is eating concentrated calories that are mostly protein and fat, not carbs. Low carb puts your body in ketosis because your body needs carbs but you are starved of them, it is literally a form of unhealthy, macro-nutrient starvation.


That is not entirely accurate. Actually it's not accurate at all because it's only part of the equation. Moreover, I'd like someone to define "low carb" or "high protein". If the carbs are 5-10% of total calories, then a person will experience ketosis. What makes one fat is over-consuming calories, being under-active and/or being insulin resistant. Insulin resistance can be genetic or a result of under-activity.

Everything Luke said here is absolutely true:
It depends on your body. People who are very insulin senstive have a hard time losing fat unless they significantly reduce carbs. People who are not very insulin sensitve can lose fat while eating more carbs.

A guy at my gym looks like Wolverine and has very low body fat in addition to being very muscular. I asked him what he eats and he basically eats a high fat, high protein diet with very few carbs (he NEVER EVER eats bread or pasta! Although he eats some rice occasionally). So some people definitely get great results from low carb diets. Vegetarians who have no experience with the fitness community have their heads in the sand on this issue.

Basically, it's like this: If you have been able to lose all the fat you want on a high-carb diet, then good, you found something that works for you. Good for you.

But if you have tried a variety of high-carb diets and have not been able to lose the fat you want to lose, then you might find a low-carb diet extremely effective!

It all depends on your goals and on what you find important.
Worthy, wise and virtuous: Who is energetic and not indolent, in misfortune unshaken,
flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273
User avatar
Jainarayan
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:56 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Low carb diets are nonsense and unhealthy. What makes you fat is eating concentrated calories that are mostly protein and fat, not carbs. Low carb puts your body in ketosis because your body needs carbs but you are starved of them, it is literally a form of unhealthy, macro-nutrient starvation.


Nearly every muscular, fit Hollywood actor for the past 20-something years (at least) has been on a low-carb or no-carb diet. There is a good reason the paleo diet is so popular now.

Also: http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:51 pm

Eating a lot of grains is fine (which of course often have a substantial amount of carbs), if you understand this:

"Gluten free and/or Sprouted (preferably both) grains are much better than even ordinary 'whole grain' grains. The body treats sprouted grains as a vegetable, and is therefore able to process them much better than ordinary grains.

"Grains with gluten, and non-sprouted grains, don't process in the physical body very well at all.

"Gluten free is maybe not quite as important, but is still better than ordinary grains if you can't get a hold of the particular sprouted grain you're looking for (or you can sprout your own barley, lentils, quinoa, etc.)"

There is a radio show with a nutritionist/dietician who talked about how people who cut gluten and/or non-sprouted grains out of their diet lost weight, had more energy, and cut much or all of the pain they used to have in their joints.

Of course it's not necessary that all of our grains be both sprouted AND gluten-free (all the better if you can do both though); but one should at least eat one or the other, or a combination of gluten-free and sprouted.

And, as I often mention and can't emphasize enough, if one doesn't want artificial synthetic-chemicals like Monsanto's toxic "Roundup" slowly accumulating in one's body, then go with organic as much as possible.

Also it's good to balance by having enough complex-carbohydrates as well.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Lhug-Pa
 
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:58 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:21 pm

Are you people joking?

Look at actors? First off, generally if you are fat, with few exceptions you will not be a Hollywood actor. Most the actors in the USA are skinny if female, or trim or muscular if male. Yet most the American population is overweight. So the type of people who at least in their youth are trim no matter what they eat, are actors. However, that is in their youth many like for example John Travolta, Marlon Brandon have their eating habits catch up with them as they age and they become fat. Many are most likely using TRT, steroids or other perfomance enhancers to bulk up or lose fat for roles. Take the amazing growth of Edward Norton for his role in American History X, Brad Pitt for Troy and Hugh Jackman for The Wolverine. Some like Arnold Schwarzenger admitted to taking steroids, others like Sylvester Stone got busted for TRT.

What you should look at is the populations who ate for the majority of their calories unrefined starches like corn, rice, potatoes, beans and the majority of their population was slim and trim like the Japanese, Chinese, South Americans and Mediterranean people before they could afford calorie dense protein and fat overloaded milk products and meat. It is not a question of insulin sensitivity or genetic chance if you eat the food humans were ideally meant to eat. Instead you want to look at the very people who can eat anything they want without gaining weight, in addition to being able to afford personal chefs, trainers, and alleged nutrition experts. This shows how addicted you guys are to meat and fad low-carb hacks for the wistful prayer you can eat it without getting fat. Even if you can in youth, well you likely won't in your old age. In addition to all the negative health consequences in addition to mere belly bulge.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:05 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Are you people joking?

Look at actors? First off, generally if you are fat, with few exceptions you will not be a Hollywood actor. Most the actors in the USA are skinny if female, or trim or muscular if male. Yet most the American population is overweight. So the type of people who at least in their youth are trim no matter what they eat, are actors.


What are you talking about? The exact point I was making is that actors who get physically fit and STAY that way do so with low-carb or no-carb paleo diets. It's such common knowledge at this point, i'll begin with Exhibit Z: http://www.examiner.com/article/drew-ca ... -being-fat

No, I'm not joking. I read the China Study, I was vegetarian most of my life and vegan for a good portion of it.

Look at asian cultures? How about look at asian cultures in their entirety... genetics, lifestyle and specific food choices. People in those cultures have lived in those cultures their whole lives and it is less ridiculous to compare people to actors, imo, than to compare people to asian cultures.

Ever read anything about the paleo diet? I don't think you have read much, that's for sure. And you certainly haven't tried it. It's the one diet you can really always count on to get in shape. And your facts about fat are simply wrong. As a vegetarian, I was overweight and my cholesterol was high. I was eating healthy vegetarian, not pizza and chips. I also spent a good few years as a vegan and raw vegan. By the end of this lifestyle choice, I was overweight and had several health problems. I saw several doctors and had allergy tests and bloodwork confirming I had no food allergies and nothing was really wrong with me. I tried a paleo-based diet as a last resort and all of my problems went away. I feel healthier now than I've ever felt and I'm obviously older than I ever was, too, so really we can be sure the weight loss, cholesterol drop and removal of all health problems is attributed to one thing and one thing only: my extremely low carb diet.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:46 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Many are most likely using TRT, steroids or other perfomance enhancers to bulk up or lose fat for roles. Take the amazing growth of Edward Norton for his role in American History X, Brad Pitt for Troy and Hugh Jackman for The Wolverine. Some like Arnold Schwarzenger admitted to taking steroids, others like Sylvester Stone got busted for TRT.
This. Of course genetic predisposition for body types does exist, but as a body builder friend of mine (who was a trainer and gym owner and illegaly sold steroids) used to say to me: whatever cannot be done by nature can be done with chemistry.

And it is not always necessary to use steroids. There are all sorts of substances available nowadays, the easiest of which to find (and cheapest) are creatine and metabolic enhancers. You can be sure that the "fit and trim" movie star set have used those ones (and cocaine) more than once.

Better living through chemistry!

chemical brother.jpg
chemical brother.jpg (9.54 KiB) Viewed 442 times

That said, low carb diets do work. But only if the bulk (majority) of the calories leading to you being overweight are from carbs. And even if the majority are from fats, reducing carbs will make a difference, just a smaller difference.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
User avatar
Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
 
Posts: 7899
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:13 pm

Actually, you don't need steroids at all. There is a way of cycling your protein that causes your body to naturally create "steroid" effect which is actually healthy. You "deprive" your body of protein for a little while and then you add a massive amount of protein to your diet for a little while. The way the body works is really interesting, it's not just protein that makes you ripped; everyone knows that. It's the sort of substance you find in steroids. If your body is working hard and doesn't have protein to rebuild muscle, your body kicks up its testosterone production and, boom, big muscles. It's similar to how your body runs off fat when there is no glucose around. Fat burns better, actually, and it is not the same situation as unhealthy ketosis as my earlier link explains.

Hugh Jackman gave an interview recently where he said in those training phases he's just constantly eating and he hates it and can't wait for it to be over. He also said that if you stop eating a ton of protein all day and exercising, the muscle goes down quickly. If he was abusing steroids, he would have a much worse situation going on. I don't believe he abused steroids for Wolverine at all. It's possible, but I just think he's too smart for that and has a good trainer who knows about protein cycling.

EDIT... and here I found him talking about exactly what I thought he was doing, protein cycling (he says he eats for 8 hours and fasts for 16, this is an extreme version of protein cycling which is not what I was talking about as "healthy," but it is the same concept):
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Dan Dorje » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:35 pm

padma norbu wrote:Actually, you don't need steroids at all. There is a way of cycling your protein that causes your body to naturally create "steroid" effect which is actually healthy.


Then why all profesionals bodybuilders are using high doses of steroids, destroying their health and life, if there is a healthy way to achieve the same results?
Most of bodybuilders are lying when they are saying that they use that protein powder or that product, or that diet. They are using steroids and/or HGH. Any fitness trainer knows that.

Now :focus: :smile:
Dan Dorje
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby dimeo » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:59 pm

Why the desire for a "low-carb" diet? Was it recommended by your doctor?

If you think about it a low carp vegan diet is essentially a low energy & low protein diet. It typically results in poor nutrition and is often used as an excuse for an eating disorder. Also add on the number of people who are also thinking they'll avoid eating any fats as well!!

The middle path of moderation could be a good way to describe a healthy diet of complex carbohydrates lower on the glycemic index so your energy lasts. Good vegetarian protein sources (beans/lentils/legumes, whole grains, nuts ) all have carbohydrates!

It's only in our very recent history of the western culture that we've idolized the malnourished (typically female) figure as being an 'idealized' form of beauty. For example, in earlier culture Rubenesque female figure was admired, and even more ancient the form of the fertility goddess.
dimeo
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:31 pm

Re: ex-vegans

Postby dimeo » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:38 pm

Well said jeeprs - my thoughts pretty much exactly, (except I'm Canadian LOL).

Some people don't seem to have the ability to "live and let live" with tolerance. And often teach a lack of tolerance and expect everyone else to think and act the way they want. It's almost 'control freak'.

And if you pay close enough attention it's a more like, "Act like I say, not what I do" because some of these authoritarian fanatics will often have difficulty following their own beliefs. So frequently, such fanatics will typically end up straying from such strict, austere, intolerant paths but live out their sins in secrecy.
They develop a self-loathing for their personal failings and express this as a need to try and control others.


jeeprs wrote:It is interesting how many forms fanaticism can assume. But then, animal liberationists have sometimes shown no compunction about death or injury to humans.

Being Australian I grew up eating meat. I have gone through vegetarian 'periods' but as I am so accustomed to meat, it doesn't strike me as revolting or unnatural to eat it from time to time. BUT, I cook and eat a lot of vegetarian meals, and frequently order the vegetarian options in restaraunts and on flights. OK it is not super-consistent but over the years you can greatly reduce meat consumption that way WITHOUT being fanatical about it.
dimeo
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:31 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:40 pm

Dan Dorje wrote:
padma norbu wrote:Actually, you don't need steroids at all. There is a way of cycling your protein that causes your body to naturally create "steroid" effect which is actually healthy.


Then why all profesionals bodybuilders are using high doses of steroids, destroying their health and life, if there is a healthy way to achieve the same results?
Most of bodybuilders are lying when they are saying that they use that protein powder or that product, or that diet. They are using steroids and/or HGH. Any fitness trainer knows that.

Now :focus: :smile:


http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... imum_gains

because it's a fairly new and semi unknown thing, people always want to get bigger easier and faster still and most importantly old dogmas take a long time to die... take your own comments for example; you are helping to perpetuate the myth that people can't pack on pounds quickly and naturally without even having ever tried it yourself.

also kind of a secret among fitness models. Also, you don't get steroidally ripped like hulk hohan or the iron sheik... and hugh jackman is not ripped like that.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:31 pm

His actual plan is explained here and his gains are expected for this plan: http://birthdayshoes.com/hugh-jackman-w ... ivefingers
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Dan Dorje » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:28 pm

padma norbu wrote:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_art ... imum_gains

because it's a fairly new and semi unknown thing, people always want to get bigger easier and faster still and most importantly old dogmas take a long time to die... take your own comments for example; you are helping to perpetuate the myth that people can't pack on pounds quickly and naturally without even having ever tried it yourself.

also kind of a secret among fitness models. Also, you don't get steroidally ripped like hulk hohan or the iron sheik... and hugh jackman is not ripped like that.

Do you think that you have access to a information while profesionals bodybuilders (those guys making a lot of money from this sport) don't? :smile:

It is very likely that Hugh Jackman used steroids, low doses. Not very likely that someone at his age will gain 25 pound of lean muscle in 6 months, natural.
http://www.celebdirtylaundry.com/2013/h ... otos-0715/

I am not saying that it is no good at all to keep diets, but people should have realistic expectations. Muscle gains obtained with steroids, can be obtained only with ... yes, steroids. And steroid usage leads to health problems and reduced life span.
About a high fat diet, maybe there are some results on a short term, but I do not know if this is very healthy on a long term.
Dan Dorje
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:26 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:19 pm

This is Jimmy Moore, who runs the living la vida low carb podcast(which my foolish brother listens to), hawks books, runs seminars, gives speeches. In protest to the vegans at Vegsource exposing his obesity, he posted this photo in defense of himself:
Image
Congratulations, he went from from being quite morbidly obese, to just obese and still sporting a hefty spare tire on the waist, thanks to an amazing low-carb, high-meat diet!

Here is Richard Nikoley of the lame freetheanimal blog, another low-carb, Paleo huckster who also apparently sells diet and health advice while actually being fat and lazy:
Image
Image

This is the reality of low-carb, outside of the ridiculous examples of bodybuilders and actors who achieve their bodies with chemical assistance and which several posters feel the need to reach for in their extreme desperation. Short-term these people do lose weight via ketosis, but they cannot maintain it due to the physical problems and ailments it causes and they yo-yo back and forth for years gaining weight, losing some of it, gaining more back, losing some back, and on and on. Even the people who are getting paid to promote low-carb full or part-time, and thus who should achieve the best results since they don't have real 9-5 jobs to make excuses about lacking time, still cannot make it work. I could go on, but is there a point? Why torture yourself and think you are a personal failure? It is simple, low calorie density, whole plant foods and exercise integrated into your daily life routine(not say driving to a gym, because you will stop at the first excuse) is what humans thrive eating and doing.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:46 am

Because generally speaking - medical conditions aside - fat people overeat... that is, they eat beyond their biologic needs.
Usually the biggest error that dieters (for weight loss) make is in thinking that they have to go on a starvation diet.
Dieters need to bring their consumption down from 'excessive' to 'normal', and not from 'current' to 'starving'.
Doing this by carefully considering both composition and quantity seems like a better approach than just one or the other.
However, contrary to popular belief, exercise does not have as significant an effect on weight loss/gain as diet.
Also, being vegetarian, vegan or any other labelled eating type does not preclude being overweight - i.e. you can be a fat vegan.
So eating healthily is not just about content.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby greentara » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:21 am

Sauntered past an organic shop yesterday and overheard a woman asking if they still carried vegan cat food for her kitten?
I wish people wouldn't impose their fad tastes on animals. A cat is always carnivorous!
Travelling in India I've seen cats on a veg diet and they look like scrawny wrecks.
greentara
 
Posts: 891
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:13 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:This is Jimmy Moore, who runs the living la vida low carb podcast...


I can post quite a lot of testimonials from various individuals explaining how high-carb diets, vegan diets and vegetarian diets failed them miserably, too. It's pretty ridiculous that you've posted 2 pictures of low-carb "hucksters," as you put it, as an attempt to prove your case. It does no such thing. As if there aren't thousands of other living proof examples out there (including me, btw) who probably simply follow the dieting guidelines a little more strictly? You really have no idea what you're talking about. I appreciate that you think you do, but you don't. It is extremely easy to lower cholesterol, lose weight and keep it off with a long term high-fat/low-carb diet.

Until you have tried both kinds of diets yourself for a number of years, you are just parroting what you've heard which appeals to you most. I have personally lived the difference between vegan, vegetarian, low-fat (all for several years) versus a low-carb/high fat vegan, vegetarian and paleo diets for the last 5 years. My findings confirm the science and the science says you are completely wrong on all counts of just about everything you've said in this thread. When I want to gain a little wait (because I often get too skinny), I simply eat some carbs and sugar for a few weeks. That is the reality.

Some food for thought:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evo ... in-ketones

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/b/2012/10 ... -study.htm
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:25 am

*weight

Homophone typos make me sad.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alfredo, smcj and 13 guests

>