Distraction in shikantaza

[明安 Myoan]

A question about what is considered distraction in shikantaza practice.

When thoughts come, whether I notice a thought as a thought right away and they dissolve, or whether they become very alluring and last more than just a moment, I'm nonetheless aware of them in some way and can remember the content of what is considered a "distraction" in other kinds of practice. There's no sharp dividing line, only a shift in objects of awareness from stories back to body or sound.
That is, instead of being aware of the body or the environment, I am "distracted" and observe a momentary compound of thoughts and feelings that play out as a memory. Then the compound dissolves.
I notice volition to "be aware of distractions" or something similar also waxes and wanes unpredictably.

So I'm wondering.
Is this not "true" awareness but merely consciousness of mental objects, like one can remember a dream later without being lucid during the dream? If so, what IS a distraction in shikantaza?
It seems a fine line between non-interference and interested proliferation.

Thanks for any insight

[Astus]

You don't have to be aware of your body or the environment. Whatever comes, comes. If you try to regulate your experience then there is a grasping at an idea, a vision of what and how things should be. And that is exactly what should not be done. Where there is no meaning given to whatever occurs then phenomena are unobstructed and the mind is unbound.

Sometimes a bodily feeling is the most prominent, sometimes a thought. It is a distraction only when you take it to be something important, when you try to keep it or push it away. Sitting is just sitting, nothing special. Like sitting on a bus and watching the landscape pass by. The moment you want to hold onto a sight, it is already gone. Remembering that sight is just another landscape passing by. Worrying about remembering is again a new vision coming and going. Distraction is to think that there is something that stays. But is there such a thing?

[明安 Myoan]

Thank you, Astus.

So what is the difference between a Buddhist who, while practicing shikantaza, experiences a daydream, versus a person who never hears of dharma and experiences a daydream?

My question hinges on the point expressed in this quote, a theme I see repeated often.

Everything is coming and going, and we just let things come up freely and let them go away freely. We don’t try to fight against our thoughts or any other mental condition, and we don’t try to interact with them, either. The intention is not to grasp what is coming up from your consciousness. We actually do nothing but let the things happening within the mind just flow.

What constitutes "interacting"? In sitting, the experience of thought is:
1. feel a thought arising, and it doesn't fully form
2. see a thought form weakly, and it's brief
3. see a thought form as a full story which lasts some time, and other objects are forgotten, then the thought fades
4. no thought occurs, and awareness rests on other transient experiences, such as sound or sight
Choice as to which occurs doesn't seem to exist. I just sit there, and one of the above happens for 30-60 minutes.

I long ago gave up on any formal concentration exercise. I've been "giving the cows a wide pasture so they don't cause trouble" as I think Suzuki put it.
But seeing the insubstantiality of practice aspirations, how "I'm going to sit zazen / I'm going to practice metta / etc." is as conditional and ungraspable as "Star Trek sure is interesting", I wonder if I'm just wiling away the hour watching daydreams.
And if this is the practice, again, how is it different from someone who doesn't practice at all? It seems to be the ordinary functioning of the mind.

I suppose I'm worried about my own incompetence and lack of a teacher.
This life is precious and short, even more so having encountered the dharma. It mustn't be wasted in delusion taken to be meaningful practice. So I come and bug all you nice people

[LastLegend]

That's not Shikantaza. The problem is language as you quoted someone there. The quote sounds like there is a reference point to maintain, which is just another language acting as an antidote to another language problem. For example, what the heck does "just let things come up freely and let them go away freely. We don’t try to fight against our thoughts or any other mental condition, and we don’t try to interact with them, either. The intention is not to grasp what is coming up from your consciousness. We actually do nothing but let the things happening within the mind just flow?" Okay if you take it word by word, what does "let" or "go" or "freely" or "fight" or "interact" or "intention" or "not to grasp" or "do nothing but let things happening in the mind just flow" mean? If Shikantaza is not any state to maintain, why does sound like there is something to maintain as such "let things happening" or "mind just flow?" What does "let" mean? Thing does not mean itself, it means other things. "Beautiful" does not refer to "beautiful" itself, it refers to characteristics of physical objects which we name beautiful, hence name and form. Emptiness is mind, not a concept or language. We cannot operate within any language/concept model such as "let things be" or "not to grasp" because we are still going in circle. What we need to do is pay attention to mind (when it operates where language does not go). For example when we hear, we just hear because we don't think "I think to hear" in order to hear. Hearing itself has no discrimination and it's spontaneous. If I knock on the table you hear first and if I stop knocking, does you hearing disappear? Same thing with seeing. This is different from analyzing emptiness of hearing and sound or it's relationship to arrive at a conclusion. It's more of like you just hear you just see, and at any given moment, that's the activity of mind.

[Jesse]

I may not be entirely accurate but there are two parts in meditation worth noting. Concentration and mindfulness. All meditation is a balancing act between these two imo.

In objectless meditation you do nothing but sit there and let all things take their nature course. Your concentration becomes natural, and mindfulness becomes unimpeded by the arising of phenomena. I can only describe the experience like: something solid and entrancing(mental phenomena)becomes ethereal and disenchanting. Or like something sticky has become unstuck haha. Thoughts being the sticky bastards.

I think alan watts said something like: letting go is a practice of learning to leave your thoughts alone so they settle themselves down.

The easiest way to tell if your mind is grasping at something is the feeling of tension or movement. When clinging ceases there is a feeling of stillness even though the objects of mind still arise and cease.

[Astus]

A daydream is being lost in a series of thoughts, following a story. That is delusion, and it can happen because we are lured into it by giving meaning and importance to the initial thought. That is what ordinary people call life, that is the monkey mind. Awakening is seeing that thoughts are without basis, without essence, without anything to grasp.

Zen is about cultivating awakening / awakened cultivation. While it is normal that the mind drifts off, at the moment one remembers (becomes mindful) of what is going on - that is, there is a reflection on the mind/thoughts - then the chain of thought is released and one has regained awareness. This returning to/of awareness during zazen in Soto is called kakusoku (覚触/覺觸), i.e. awareness or becoming aware. It is not a question whether there are or are not any thoughts, but whether one is aware of it or sucked into a story. It is in some ways similar to the type of meditation when one focuses on an object, then gets distracted by various experiences (thoughts or anything else), but then one realises that and returns to the object. That point where one realises the distraction is when one is mindful. The important difference is that in zazen what one should be mindful of is that there is nothing to be mindful of, because every experience is ungraspable. That is the awakened awareness that one cultivates, awakening again and again.