How to stop desiring in meditation

Post Reply
mddrill
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:27 am

How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by mddrill »

Hi, I cant seem to stop desiring my meditation to be one way or another.
I know that in zazen im supposed to let go of ideas of gaining something but I don't know how to do that

does anyone have any advice on this?
User avatar
明安 Myoan
Former staff member
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by 明安 Myoan »

It's pretty simple.
Pick two times of day to sit. I do immediately after waking up, and in the evening a few hours before bed.
Then sit no matter what :)
If it's hot, sit. If it's cold, sit. If you're too tired, sit. If you're obsessed with a problem, sit. If your head is full of a million daydreams and hopes, sit. If meditating seems like the least appealing thing in the world to do, sit. If you note the desire to make meditation a certain way, sit. If you don't know how to let go, then sit. If Buddhism makes no sense to you, sit. If a million buddhas and bodhisattvas fill the room, point to your watch and say, "sorry it's time for my zazen."
Do hot meditation, do cold meditation, do "I don't know what I'm doing" meditation. And so on.
Conversely, things may go beautifully, you may have pleasant feelings or visions, or feel things are going really quite well... then your timer goes off. Just have to get up and go on with your day. If you realized enlightenment or astral projected into the deva realm, you'd still sit again the next day.

It's in wanting or hoping for the pleasant "now I've got it" meditation that we begrudge the imperfect or boring meditation.
I asked a Zen nun what her biggest challenge was while sitting. "Boredom," she said.
Really, sitting is just as ordinary as we are, since we are the ones sitting and we sit in our daily lives.

Hope that helps.
Namu Amida Butsu
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17093
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

mddrill wrote:Hi, I cant seem to stop desiring my meditation to be one way or another.
I know that in zazen im supposed to let go of ideas of gaining something but I don't know how to do that

does anyone have any advice on this?
Stop trying to meditate, just sit there for half an hour, and don't try to do any techniques or anything. Don't try to undo how you feel about meditation either.. Sounds crazy, but this is what worked for me.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by Astus »

Trying to remove concepts with more concepts hardly ever works, unless you learn to be good at proper Buddhist reasoning. If you just want the zazen remedy, the skilful means is focusing on your posture, as it's been advised before. Of course, that's not exactly Zen but body-mindfulness, it can still work. There are other options as well, like using a koan, breath, or you could walk instead of sitting. Also check Meiho Sotetsu's writing on zazen for some inspiration.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 2092
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:50 pm
Location: South Florida, USA

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by seeker242 »

mddrill wrote:Hi, I cant seem to stop desiring my meditation to be one way or another.
I know that in zazen im supposed to let go of ideas of gaining something but I don't know how to do that

does anyone have any advice on this?
Just returning to the breathing works. :smile: If you are fully with the breath, then by definition, you have already let go of ideas of gaining something. Those ideas will reappear and you just return to the breath and they disappear. They reappear again and you just return to the breath and they disappear again. One should not be so distraught over the fact that they appear. It's just a naturally occurring idea, it's not good or bad in and of itself. The idea that these ideas should not be appearing can be as much of a hindrance as the ideas themselves, as it's just another idea on top of the first idea. You don't have to force yourself to let go of ideas somehow. All you really have to do is return to the breath. This is how I have done it. Works good. :)
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
mddrill
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:27 am

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by mddrill »

Thanks guys these are all really helpful
thigle
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Location: Salzburg
Contact:

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by thigle »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
mddrill wrote:Hi, I cant seem to stop desiring my meditation to be one way or another.
I know that in zazen im supposed to let go of ideas of gaining something but I don't know how to do that

does anyone have any advice on this?
Stop trying to meditate
Yes. But »stop trying to meditate« resp. »don't trying to do any techniques« resp. »don't doing anything« can be »meditation« like »thinking about« to. So, maybe that's not enough, if you want actualy simply sit, instead of »trying to simply sit« resp. practicing »simply sitting«, which is just an conceptualy-reified copy of actual simply sitting.
Task: Simply sit. Implement this task before you read further.

There are two different ways to implement this task:

You try to simply sit. This is synonymouse to »practice« resp. »artificiality«.
You simply sit. This is synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«.

Extended: Simply sit. Implement this task – but don’t meditate. How? Whenever you »try to simply sit« rather then to simply sit, recognize how »an« contrived »simply sitting« permeates the experience due to your »practiced implementation«. Therefore, whenever you »try to simply sit« rather then to simply sit, interrupt this detected »meditation« and simply sit. If you are naturally able to implement the task »de facto« instead of practicing resp. conceptually reify it again, this is already synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«. Since »primordial looseness« is completely unfabricated, there is immediate-obvious no need to practice resp. conceptually reify the task again.
or
..therefore, whenever you catch yourself practicing »simply sitting« rather then simply sitting, stop this »meditation« and simply sit. If you are naturally able to implement the task »de facto« instead of practicing resp. conceptually reify it again, this is already synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«.
So, just »stop trying to meditate« has to much potential for misunderstandings, because there's no concrete basis to stop trying to meditate.
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by Dan74 »

It just happens eventually - there's no direct way to will it. The key is to stay with the practice, paying attention to the posture. Eventually the mind gets tired of the games, of congratulating and castigating and finally of observing.

Might take a while, that's why some teachers (depending on the student) don't recommend it (see e.g. Ven Sheng-Yen).

_/|\_
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by DGA »

Hi mddrill:

I noticed that you posted this question specifically in the Soto Zen subforum. So far, the guidance you've been given has been general to Buddhism generally, and not specific to Soto Zen (which, as I've said elsewhere, is a really terrific tradition). I'm bumping this thread in case anyone may have something more particular to offer you viz. Soto approaches.
thigle
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Location: Salzburg
Contact:

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by thigle »

The sectarians have only fear for their sect. But this is not necessary and only expresses the lack of understanding of their own practice. Recognicing ones own »practiced imlementation« resp. »conceptual reification« of the task and therefore recognicing »an« subjective »simply sitting« instead of to simply sit, can also be found by Uchiyama Roshi. The detected reification is interrupted by returning to the posture again. This is an »waking up again« to zazen with »flesh and blood«. A return to »real life« resp. »actuallity«. Without this »waking up again« based on recognicing owns own »just thinking about the task«, you »just hang around« a lifetime, instead of zazen.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by LastLegend »

mddrill wrote:Hi, I cant seem to stop desiring my meditation to be one way or another.
I know that in zazen im supposed to let go of ideas of gaining something but I don't know how to do that

does anyone have any advice on this?
Have you tried "just seeing" your own mental activities?
It’s eye blinking.
DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9466
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by DGA »

thigle wrote:The sectarians have only fear for their sect. But this is not necessary and only expresses the lack of understanding of their own practice.
I think sectarianism is a poison. Here's a thread I started about it, as a reminder to a certain set of sectarian critics who are monitoring this thread but not contributing to it:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=17256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That said, different traditions to offer specific kinds of teachings and guidance to students at different stages of development. If someone asks for a Soto Zen presentation, then it makes sense to ensure they get it accurately. But as we've seen at DharmaWheel, specifically in the Soto Zen sub-forum, getting it across accurately is sometimes a matter of debate.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 44&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Luke
Posts: 1999
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm
Location: Europe

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by Luke »

Hi mddrill,

How is your posture when you are meditating? One of the most important things to Soto Zen Buddhists is the meditation posture itself. If your posture isn't good, it will influence your mind in a negative way. If you can, focus less on your mind and more on maintaining perfect posture.

My Soto Zen teacher encourages us to bring our minds back to our posture and breath and not to get involved with manipulating our minds because a person will get stuck in that. But I haven't spent too much time with Soto Zen Buddhists yet, so more experienced practitioners might give better answers. Good luck with ignoring your mind :namaste:
thigle
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:46 pm
Location: Salzburg
Contact:

Re: How to stop desiring in meditation

Post by thigle »

mddrill wrote:Hi, I cant seem to stop desiring my meditation to be one way or another.
Stop the meditate. Stop to "practice" simply sitting .. and simply sit. To "practice" simply sitting is just like "thinking about it".
Post Reply

Return to “Soto”