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Can there be no manasikāra? - Dhamma Wheel

Can there be no manasikāra?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:26 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:32 pm


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ground
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby ground » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:21 am


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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:24 am

Hmm, it looks as if there could be instances of the total absence of manasikara, but the consequence of that seems to be the absence of (corresponding) consciousness as well.

MN 28 speaks of the absolute necessity for the contemporaneous presence of a sense object, the sense organ and the "corresponding engagement" in order for the corresponding consciousness to arise.

The Commentaries interpret "corresponding engagement" (tajjo samanaharo) to mean "manasikara". "Tajjo samanaharo" is a rare Nikaya term and could be the outcome of formalisation in the redaction process. It would seem that the Commentarial explanation is in line with how the Chinese parallel of MN 28 has been preserved; see here -

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9215&start=40#p145471

In the Chinese, the term corresponding to "tajjo samanaharo" is 念 (nian) typically used for sati/smṛti. But, in the Chinese discussions of Namarupa (eg EA 49.5 as a parallel to SN 12.2), 念 is used for manasikara, where it parallels the Pali presention of Nama.

The question that should arise would be whether or not "manasikara" as a component or aspect of Nama can be choice-less, since intention is also another aspect of Nama.

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby ground » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:31 am


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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby Akuma » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:07 am


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cooran
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby cooran » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:55 am

Hello all,

The Universals 12 Cetasikas - Nina Van Gorkom
Chapter 7
Vitality (jivitindriya) and Attention (manasikara)
http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas9.html

with metta
Chris
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:24 am


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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby cooran » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:31 am

Ooops! Good catch Tilt! Should have checked rather than simply responding to prior post.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:34 am


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cooran
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby cooran » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:44 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:33 pm

Greetings Cooran,

The Abhidhamma definition of manasikāra seems quite nuanced and prescriptive, but even within the scope of the sutta usages, it does appear that there's both a general sense and a specific/functional sense to manasikāra, as per the opening definition provided courtesy of Tilt.

The general application (definition 2) is that which relates to wise or unwise attention, and that is meant in the general sense. That is where (A)yoniso-manasikara fits in.

However there seems to be a more specific/functional (dare I say, proto-Abhidhammic?) sense to the word (as per definition 1), when it is included in the nama group of functions, even if we were to filter out the components of the definition sourced from Abhidhamma material.

"Feeling, perception, volition, contact, and attention—these are called mentality (lit: name)" (MN 9)

That said, they might well be one and the same... I don't think we should rule that out. When I asked the question however, I was thinking with reference to the more specific/functional interpretation, with manasikāra as part of nama.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:51 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:45 am

Greetings acinteyyo,

Interesting analysis - thanks for sharing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:57 pm

The Suttas seem to suggest 'contemplation' (ie verbal 'attention') as a better fit for the meaning of manasikara:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Note in this sutta, you cannot choicelessly attend to say.. rupa, as a cancer, as a sore etc. These have to be deliberately contemplated in this way.

Under this definition manasikara would fall into the sankhara skandha (mental fabrications).

with metta

Matheesha
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Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:37 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby Sylvester » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:53 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:02 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:16 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Can there be no manasikāra?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:06 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.


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