I even worte a small peice on smoe mistakes Karl made, you can read it here http://madhyamisc.wordpress.com/
Thank you for it. Excuse I only have "the tibetan" books. I will not use my english anymore but I recommend "The Feast" (page 152) the quote from IX Karmapa:
Does the refutation of arising from the four extremes apply to ultimate
truth or to conventional truth? The Autonomists (Svātantrika, Rang-
gyüpa/rang rgyud pa) assert that it only applies to the ultimate truth, but
here, [in the Consequentialist system], arising from the four extremes is
refuted in both truths. This is explained by this very treatise in the follow-
ing and other verses:
Reasonings prove that arising from self and other
Are illogical in suchness.
Since they also prove that arising is illogical conventionally,
On what basis do you speak of “arising”? (6.36)
One may protest, “It follows that you deny the conventional arising
of phenomena, because for you phenomena do not arise from the four
extremes.” It is true that we do not assert “conventional arising.” However,
to ensure that our presentation does not lapse from the worldly perspec-
tive renowned to others, and to avoid denying the connection between
actions and results, we present conventional arising from the perspective
of others. When doing so, we accept and proclaim—from the perspec-
tive of others—an arising resembling the arising of dreams and reflections.
Arising in this context is synonymous with dependent arising, free from
the four extremes. We describe arising, actions, results, and so on merely
in accordance with what is accepted in the world.Therefore, the consequence that arising would not exist even conven-
tionally does not apply to us:
when we speak of arising, we do so free of
any logical analysis. When we analyze with logic, no arising is accepted.
Since arising accepted in the context of analysis would definitely entail
one of the four extremes, we do not accept any form of arising when ena-
gaged in analysis.
Therefore, although Followers of the Middle Way do not accept aris-
ing even on the conventional level from their own perspective, they do
accept arising and so forth on the conventional level from the perspec-
tive of others.
There is no contradiction in doing this, because accept-
ing something from the perspective of others is not an assertion of one’s
own position. It is, rather, a mere repetition of what others say, like an
echo. This principle can be applied to all instances of accepting something
According to Rendawa one should not refute arising on the conven-
tional level if there has been no analysis, because the arising free of the four
extremes is dependent arising. Furthermore, worldly people say things like
“sprouts arise from seeds” and so on, and it is necessary to speak in har-
mony with the world. However, arising from any of the four extremes is
not to be accepted even on the conventional level.
It seems that on this
topic there are no great contradictions between the position of Rendawa
and that expressed here.
In sum, mere dependent arising, free from the four extremes, is empti-
ness. It is the path of the Middle Way, the antidote to all views.
It is not a
mistake, therefore, to accept arising conventionally from the perspective
of others and at the same time say that there is no arising even conven-
tionally. This is so because upon analyzing dependent arising it is seen to
be free from all extremes. Therefore whoever propounds arising from any
of the four extremes is not a proponent of dependent arising. The master
Nāgārjuna, in a praise to the Buddha, said:
Logicians imagine that
Suffering is created by itself,
By others, by both, or causelessly.
You taught that it arises in dependence.
Those who speak of dependent arising are free of bias; in neither of the
two truths do they fall into any of the four or eight extremes.
are free of clinging to anything
, they do not lapse from ultimate truth.
Since they are free from error regarding any mundane or transcendent
conventions, they also do not lapse from relative truth. For that reason,
the master Nāgārjuna said (Fundamental Wisdom):
For the one for whom emptiness is possible,
Everything is possible..........................