Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

A forum for those wishing to discuss Buddhist history and teachings in the Western academic manner, referencing appropriate sources.
Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:48 pm

Here I made the syntesis from my previous posts based on quotes:


The "self-liberation" for Centrists (Madhyamikas) means never need (process, production, possibility) of liberation of what was never in the first place. Never need (process, production, possibility) of liberation of the seeming which was never in the first place (sentient beings; obscurations to liberation and to omniscience). Never need (process, production, possibility) of liberation of perfect nirvāṇa by nature which was never in the first place (buddhahood).

It also means there is always the need (process, production, possibility) for worldly beings of the Dharma Path as the method of the seeming (the obscurations to liberation and to omniscience).

Why it is the method of the seeming only. Because for worldly beings in Mahayana it seems to last the three incalculable eons during many reincarnations as bodhisattva, in tantra one human lifetime, in Dzogchen seems to be already the "self-liberated". So where is the time here when the method is possible? So according to Centrists the method was never at the first place but only seems to be.

Worldly beings as Animals, Humans, Pretas perceive differently. But there is the Path for them indeed. Because of this Path, sentient beings by subject-side perceive gross Nirmanakaya, bodhisattvas free from clinging perceive subtle Sambhogakaya, buddhas?.... because there is not any division at this level "they" can not continue to perceive but the Dharmakaya. The object of all of these is what? The division is where? For Centrists never was at the first place but only seems to.

Nevetheless, until it seems to be division is also the Path. This Path leads to the no division. When division between "Buddha" and "sentient being" is completely no more, it means the all qualities (Dharmakaya, Rupakaya). This means: All divisions belong to the seeming not to the buddhas.

According to Centrists the “Two Truths” division is only from deceiving perspective of sentient beings (the seeming): conventional - it is not possible to know by them the infinitive causes/conditions or cognitions of any object, ultimate - is not possible for sentient beings to have the freedom from all reference points. Conventional reality of any object is "workable daily life" consensus only as far as not analyzed (sentient beings). When analyzed is completely lost (Centrists).
In Buddhahood there is no such division: if Buddha would know precisely the seeming (the omniscience) it will be the total freedom from all reference points.
The both "the two truths" are the same impossible for sentient beings, and the same beyond "the seeming of sentient being" (so impossible for sentient beings) from the perspective of buddhas. So there is no any basis or need for divisions.


If is any error in this syntesis, please let me know where. Thanx :smile:

User avatar
cloudburst
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby cloudburst » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:18 pm


User avatar
cloudburst
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby cloudburst » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:45 pm


User avatar
Mr. G
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Location: Spaceship Earth

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mr. G » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:01 pm

Split Topic:

Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:36 pm


User avatar
cloudburst
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby cloudburst » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:18 pm


Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:15 pm


User avatar
cloudburst
Posts: 320
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby cloudburst » Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:15 pm


Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:42 pm


Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:08 pm

...and here (The Feast; IX Kamapa, p. 333):

The sūtras say:
Those who study a teaching and become attached to it
Will become angry when they hear something that is not that
teaching.
Their pride and conceit will defeat them
And lead them only to suffering.
Those who desire liberation must first let go of their clinging to posi-
tions. They will then be capable of relying on the teachings of Nāgārjuna,
which explain the nature of reality in a way that harmonizes with what is
generally accepted in the world. They should train in the essential point
that all phenomena are merely dependently arisen. This training itself will
become the cause of their liberation.
From the perspective of analysis, and from the perspective of the noble
ones, even interdependence and the liberation that its realization causes
are inexpressible. Nothing is attained, and no one attains anything. At the
time of realizing this, one does not even say that such things “do not exist.”
One does not attempt any description using words such as “exist,” “does
not exist,” “both,” or “neither.”
At that time, one does not conceive of anything. One does not fixate
on anything. One does not apply any effort. One does not do anything.
In this great state of no action itself, one rests uncontrived, loosely, and
evenly.

When resting in that way, all appearances of the sixfold collection of
consciousness are appearance-emptiness, sound-emptiness, awareness-
emptiness. Look nakedly. Rest in their naked liberation.
This is the supreme view and meditation of the Middle Way.

.............Followers of the Middle Way, therefore, do not affirm nonexistence
through refuting existence. Nor do they affirm or accept “being neither”
through refuting “being both.” The refutations of existence, being both,
being neither, and so on are simply words used to undermine the wrong
thinking of others
. They are accepted merely as statements from the per-
spective of other, worldly beings. Relying on them as such, the Follow-
ers of the Middle Way reverse others’ misconceptions. They do not refute
anything or affirm anything as their own system. They simply speak in
accordance with the following quotation from Shāntideva’s Entrance to
the Conduct of Bodhisattvas:
All analyses depend
On simply what is renowned in the world. (9.108cd)

Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:55 pm


Mariusz
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:08 pm

Re: Gorampa untenable according to Karmapa

Postby Mariusz » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:59 pm



Return to “Academic Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 7 guests