Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:45 am

I know that text isn't Madhyamika, Namdrol....also understand how Mipham labors to make it non-contradictory....I recall that Khenpo Shenga's commentary on this particular text was based on Vasubhandu, per the forward...not Buddhapalita.

Perhaps he uses Budhapalita as a source for the true madhyamika works?
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:06 pm

conebeckham wrote:I know that text isn't Madhyamika, Namdrol....also understand how Mipham labors to make it non-contradictory....I recall that Khenpo Shenga's commentary on this particular text was based on Vasubhandu, per the forward...not Buddhapalita.

Perhaps he uses Budhapalita as a source for the true madhyamika works?


Right, we are not communicating well. Khenpo Shenga's commentary on MMK has not been published yet.

His commmentry on the dharmadharmata vibhanga is based on Vasubandhu. It also presents Mipham's side by side. Mipham's attempt to reconcile DDV with Madhyamaka is exactly the kind of Tibetan exegesis that muddies the water because Mipham uses a couple of linguistic sleights of hand that are possible in Tibetan (suggesting that if you substitute rnam par snang ba for rnam par rig pa (vijñapti) the text can the be read as Madhyamaka text) and are completely impossible in Sanskrit.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:22 pm

Thanks, Namdrol--that's really interesting! Didn't know about that linguistic sleight-of-hand, and that's something most of us would never catch..... And a good example of why you stress the importance of the root (Indian) texts.
Do you know if Khenpo Shenga's commentary to MMK is in the works for publication in translation?

Also, off-topic I know, but w/ regard to Maitreya's Five Treatises, Are you familiar with this?
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Discour ... 282&sr=1-1

I think Thurman was the head translator. I'm wondering if it's a good translation? (Perhaps a thread about JamChoDeNga in translation may be a good idea...)
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:27 pm

conebeckham wrote:Thanks, Namdrol--that's really interesting! Didn't know about that linguistic sleight-of-hand, and that's something most of us would never catch..... And a good example of why you stress the importance of the root (Indian) texts.
Do you know if Khenpo Shenga's commentary to MMK is in the works for publication in translation?

Also, off-topic I know, but w/ regard to Maitreya's Five Treatises, Are you familiar with this?
http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Discour ... 282&sr=1-1

I think Thurman was the head translator. I'm wondering if it's a good translation? (Perhaps a thread about JamChoDeNga in translation may be a good idea...)



It's a little wierd in my opinion, but it is consistent in its wierdness and scholarly.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby gad rgyangs » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:30 pm

Namdrol wrote:Khenpo Shenga's commentary on MMK has not been published yet.


Speaking of which, Brother Namdrol, Lotsawa Namdrol, where are your translations????. Isn't it time to make a contribution? What are you waiting for? (certainly not a six figure advance from snowlion, i hope). With your experience, expertise and insight, how can you hide your light under a basket? If you dont want to make translations and give them away, and cant or wont deal with publishers, then just make pdfs and sell them on Lulu or Amazon. I'd buy every single one. I mean, come on, bro, daylight's burning. death is certain but the time is uncertain....you know the drill.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:15 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Khenpo Shenga's commentary on MMK has not been published yet.


Speaking of which, Brother Namdrol, Lotsawa Namdrol, where are your translations????. Isn't it time to make a contribution? What are you waiting for? (certainly not a six figure advance from snowlion, i hope). With your experience, expertise and insight, how can you hide your light under a basket? If you dont want to make translations and give them away, and cant or wont deal with publishers, then just make pdfs and sell them on Lulu or Amazon. I'd buy every single one. I mean, come on, bro, daylight's burning. death is certain but the time is uncertain....you know the drill.



I want to make sure my mango not only looks ripe, but is in fact ripe.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby kirtu » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Khenpo Shenga's commentary on MMK has not been published yet.


Speaking of which, Brother Namdrol, Lotsawa Namdrol, where are your translations????. Isn't it time to make a contribution? What are you waiting for? (certainly not a six figure advance from snowlion, i hope). With your experience, expertise and insight, how can you hide your light under a basket? If you dont want to make translations and give them away, and cant or wont deal with publishers, then just make pdfs and sell them on Lulu or Amazon. I'd buy every single one. I mean, come on, bro, daylight's burning. death is certain but the time is uncertain....you know the drill.



I want to make sure my mango not only looks ripe, but is in fact ripe.


We can digest not quite ripened mango.

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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:09 pm

I try to grow Mango, and end up with Guava.

So, there you go. :smile:
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Terma » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Namdrol wrote:I think it is better to stick to Nagarajuna and Aryadeva. Nagarjuna and Arydeva are straighyforward and easy to understand. This is the "pedagogical tradition" of Khenpo Shenga.


I will take your suggestion here, Namdrol.

I have been studying Chandrakirti's madhyamakavatara[i][/i], by way of a very lengthy and detailed teaching given by Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Rinpoche (pdf format). It is quite "meaty", and somewhat challenging. But of course, like was mentioned some of the commentary/teaching is done according to the Tibetan Shedra tradition, though I feel Rinpoche tries to keep it to its original form, rather then taking the positions of the various lineages or schools.

Has anyone studied this? Comments? (BTW, I found this much easier to digest than Mipham's commentary)

Is Chandrakirti perhaps not the best angle to take here? Do you feel that Nagarjuna/Aryadeva might present things in an easier format as suggested earlier? Can someone recommend a good starting point in terms of nagarjuna (ie. books/commentaries)

thanks,

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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:03 am

Terma wrote:
Namdrol wrote:I think it is better to stick to Nagarajuna and Aryadeva. Nagarjuna and Arydeva are straighyforward and easy to understand. This is the "pedagogical tradition" of Khenpo Shenga.


I will take your suggestion here, Namdrol.

I have been studying Chandrakirti's madhyamakavatara[i][/i], by way of a very lengthy and detailed teaching given by Dzongsar Khyentse Jamyang Rinpoche (pdf format). It is quite "meaty", and somewhat challenging. But of course, like was mentioned some of the commentary/teaching is done according to the Tibetan Shedra tradition, though I feel Rinpoche tries to keep it to its original form, rather then taking the positions of the various lineages or schools.

Has anyone studied this? Comments? (BTW, I found this much easier to digest than Mipham's commentary)

Is Chandrakirti perhaps not the best angle to take here? Do you feel that Nagarjuna/Aryadeva might present things in an easier format as suggested earlier? Can someone recommend a good starting point in terms of nagarjuna (ie. books/commentaries)

thanks,

Terma


Candra is fine too, but not as essential.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Jnana » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:56 pm

Jinzang wrote:Generally speaking, I find the arguments tortured and difficult to follow. As an example, the critique of motion in the second chapter of the MMK, which starts out clearly (if not convincingly) but quickly goes downhill.

As you probably know, it's a somewhat common experience. Some people find the epistemologically based stage-by-stage method explained in Kamalaśīla's Bhāvanākramas and Vimalamitra's Kramaprāveśikabhāvanārtha to be more convincing.

Meditation and the Concept of Insight in Kamalaśīla's Bhāvanākramas
Mādhyamika and Epistemology: A Study of Kamalaśīla's Method for Proving the Voidness of all Dharmas
The Stages of Meditation by Vimalamitra

In The Center of the Sunlit Sky, pp. 295-310, Karl B. gives a detailed explanation of these progressive stages of insight meditation.

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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Lhug-Pa » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:09 am



Nice find.

Do you happen to know if this treatise is from the view of Mahayana in general, Tantra, or Dzogchen?
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Jnana » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:33 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Nice find.

Do you happen to know if this treatise is from the view of Mahayana in general, Tantra, or Dzogchen?

It's a fairly short sūtrayāna stages of meditation treatise, similar in view and presentation to Kamalaśīla's Second Bhāvanākrama. It also has a lengthy section of sūtra quotations at the end emphasizing the importance of solitary meditation practice.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:39 am

Ah I see.

Thanks Jnana.


catmoon wrote::jawdrop:


OMG I will NEVER be able to sort all this out. Where's my beads?

Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum
Om mani padme hum

...


:twothumbsup:

Well considering your response here, the two philosophies that you would likely find to be best for you, would be of the Mahamadhyamaka:

Prasangika-Madhyamaka

And:

Yogachara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka or Yogacara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka

So there's not necessarily any need to memorize the names of all the different philosophical schools.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby catmoon » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:Ah I see.

Well considering your response here, the two philosophies that you would likely find to be best for you, would be of the Mahamadhyamaka:

Prasangika-Madhyamaka

And:

Yogachara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka or Yogacara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka




I wonder tho, if I start digging into Pransangika-Madhyamaka, is that going to throw me into conflict with my foundation in Gelug orthodoxy?
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:59 pm

The "Orthodox Geluk" position is that they ARE Prasangika Madhyamika, actually.

I don't want to reopen this can of worms, but I think it depends on what you read, and whose presentation of "Prasangika Madhyamika" you're exposed to.

Frankly, I think the difference between the so-called Svatantrika- and Prasangika-distinctions is not terribly important to an understanding of the main point of Madhyamika.
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Tom » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:27 pm

catmoon wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:Ah I see.

Well considering your response here, the two philosophies that you would likely find to be best for you, would be of the Mahamadhyamaka:

Prasangika-Madhyamaka

And:

Yogachara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka or Yogacara-Svatantrika-Madhyamaka




I wonder tho, if I start digging into Pransangika-Madhyamaka, is that going to throw me into conflict with my foundation in Gelug orthodoxy?


Perfect example of how these designations don't mean much unless associated with a particular Tibetan master!
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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Caz » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:47 pm

conebeckham wrote:The "Orthodox Geluk" position is that they ARE Prasangika Madhyamika, actually.

I don't want to reopen this can of worms, but I think it depends on what you read, and whose presentation of "Prasangika Madhyamika" you're exposed to.

Frankly, I think the difference between the so-called Svatantrika- and Prasangika-distinctions is not terribly important to an understanding of the main point of Madhyamika.


While not important for a beginer It would be important for one whom is progressing through the grounds and paths and trying to distinguish which set of teachings confirm or negate Inherant existence as a requisite for fully abandoning Ignorance.
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby Malcolm » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:27 pm

catmoon wrote:

I wonder tho, if I start digging into Pransangika-Madhyamaka, is that going to throw me into conflict with my foundation in Gelug orthodoxy?


Yes, since you will discover that gelug "prasanga" is not the "prasanga" of the founder of Prasanga, Batsab Nyima Drag.

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Re: Madyamika Sautrantika vs Prasangika

Postby conebeckham » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:18 pm

Caz wrote:
conebeckham wrote:The "Orthodox Geluk" position is that they ARE Prasangika Madhyamika, actually.

I don't want to reopen this can of worms, but I think it depends on what you read, and whose presentation of "Prasangika Madhyamika" you're exposed to.

Frankly, I think the difference between the so-called Svatantrika- and Prasangika-distinctions is not terribly important to an understanding of the main point of Madhyamika.


While not important for a beginer It would be important for one whom is progressing through the grounds and paths and trying to distinguish which set of teachings confirm or negate Inherant existence as a requisite for fully abandoning Ignorance.


First, we need only discuss the first two Paths--as the Path of Seeing, and everything above it, is predicated on direct experience, rather than conceptual frameworks or "sets of teachings."
So, if you feel the distinction between "so-called Svatantrika and Prasangika" is important, it would only be important for someone on the Paths of Accumulation and Preparation. Of course, even residing on the first path is a transmundane state, so I think it's only "beginners" in a sense who would be involved in these sorts of conceptual distinctions--i.e., people like us! :smile: (Apologies to any Bodhisattvas residing on the Dharma Wheel Ground....)

Madhyamika, truly understood, negates "existence." It also negates "nonexistence," and all other options. No need for the "inherent" qualifier, which is Tsong Khapa's (very helpful, at times) "novelty." (see Namdrol's comment re "Prasanga.") The Tibetan distinctions between Prasangika and Svatantrika, etc., are more about the methods by which analysis is undertaken.
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