responses to Madhyamaka

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responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Greg » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:03 pm

Can anyone recommend interesting academic works on whatever responses there may have been -- from Sravakas, Yogacarins, Brahmanical schools, or anyone really -- to Madhyamaka arguments? I am not familiar with any such responses, although undoubtedly there were many.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby smcj » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:26 pm

I like "Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. It is about 80 pages total, and it summarizes the Shravaka, Cittamatra, Svatantrika, Prasangika and Shentong approaches. As such it ends with Shentong as being a superior/definitive position, and goes beyond the Prasangika Madhyamaka.

However I must give the caveat that it is from the modern Karma Kagyu perspective, and Khenpo takes the unusual position that the terms "Yogacara" and "Shentong" (empty-of-other) are synonyms. Almost everyone else uses "Yogacara" as a synonym for "Cittamatra" (mind only). Other than that it is a useful short overview of the different positions, and not too difficult to read.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Indrajala » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:42 pm

I seem to recall the following addressing some issues people took with Madhyamaka:

Indian Buddhist Theories of Persons: Vasubandhu's Refutation of the Theory of a Self (Routledge Critical Studies in Buddhism) by James Duerlinger.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby rob h » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:08 pm

smcj wrote:I like "Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. It is about 80 pages total, and it summarizes the Shravaka, Cittamatra, Svatantrika, Prasangika and Shentong approaches. As such it ends with Shentong as being a superior/definitive position, and goes beyond the Prasangika Madhyamaka.


Thanks, just found it here (not a brilliant .pdf, but readable.) and have started reading through : http://www.wearesentience.com/uploads/7 ... tiness.pdf
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Greg » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:13 pm

smcj wrote:I like "Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. It is about 80 pages total, and it summarizes the Shravaka, Cittamatra, Svatantrika, Prasangika and Shentong approaches. As such it ends with Shentong as being a superior/definitive position, and goes beyond the Prasangika Madhyamaka.

However I must give the caveat that it is from the modern Karma Kagyu perspective, and Khenpo takes the unusual position that the terms "Yogacara" and "Shentong" (empty-of-other) are synonyms. Almost everyone else uses "Yogacara" as a synonym for "Cittamatra" (mind only). Other than that it is a useful short overview of the different positions, and not too difficult to read.


Thanks, I've read that book but it isn't academic and I should clarify that I am interested in academic works that discuss historical Indian counter arguments in response to Madhyamaka, but not Madhyamaka sub-school intramural conflict.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Greg » Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Indrajala wrote:I seem to recall the following addressing some issues people took with Madhyamaka:

Indian Buddhist Theories of Persons: Vasubandhu's Refutation of the Theory of a Self (Routledge Critical Studies in Buddhism) by James Duerlinger.


Thanks, I do recall there was some discussion there! I will revisit that.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:27 pm

Greg wrote:Can anyone recommend interesting academic works on whatever responses there may have been -- from Sravakas, Yogacarins, Brahmanical schools, or anyone really -- to Madhyamaka arguments? I am not familiar with any such responses, although undoubtedly there were many.


The Essence of other emptiness by Taranatha is pretty good.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Son of Buddha » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:29 pm

smcj wrote:I like "Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. It is about 80 pages total, and it summarizes the Shravaka, Cittamatra, Svatantrika, Prasangika and Shentong approaches. As such it ends with Shentong as being a superior/definitive position, and goes beyond the Prasangika Madhyamaka.

However I must give the caveat that it is from the modern Karma Kagyu perspective, and Khenpo takes the unusual position that the terms "Yogacara" and "Shentong" (empty-of-other) are synonyms. Almost everyone else uses "Yogacara" as a synonym for "Cittamatra" (mind only). Other than that it is a useful short overview of the different positions, and not too difficult to read.


I believe Dolpopa also said the same thing.

If i'm not mistaken he said Yogacara and cittamatra were not the same thing..........don't quote me on it I will have to skim through the Mountain Doctrine for it.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby smcj » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:51 pm

If i'm not mistaken he said Yogacara and cittamatra were not the same thing..........don't quote me on it I will have to skim through the Mountain Doctrine for it.

Well if Dolpopa said the same thing, then I'm going to say that the term "Yogacara" is now entirely ambiguous. Depending on who is using it, it could either mean "Mind Only" or "empty-of-other",
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby conebeckham » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:28 am

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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Greg » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:37 am

Thanks for the suggestions, but it seems to me that I didn't phrase my question very well. I'm not interested in books *about* Madhyamaka. I have a million of those, including all of the ones you mention (although I admit I have not dug deeply into all of them).

I'm thinking of stuff like this:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/173165475/Bha ... d-Analysis

and

http://www.scribd.com/doc/173166626/The ... ss-Moments

In the same way that the 9th century Nyāya philosopher Bhaṭṭa Jayanta wrote the refutation of Yogācāra, and the 10th century Śaiva Siddhānta philosopher Bhaṭṭa Rāmakaṇṭha wrote criticisms of Dharmakīti, and the 11th century Kaśmir Śaivite Abhinavagupta was immersed in Buddhist logic, did they or any other of the Nyāya or Mīmāṃsā or Advaita Vedānta write any attacks on Madhyamaka? I know that Śaṅkara wrote about Madhyamaka but I haven't seen much in the way of specifics.

I read here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-epU7N ... sm&f=false

that "the Māṇḍukyakārikās Gauḍapāda had been a bridge between Madhyamaka absolutism and Vedāntika non-dualism." I would be interested to know more about that, and the like. Further, I know that Bhāvāviveka and Dharmapāla debated and Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka: A Philosophical Introduction by Jan Westerhoff makes passing reference to this, but I'd be interested in other more detailed sources for that and especially counter polemics by even later Yogācārins, if any.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby conebeckham » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:27 am

Ah! I see. If I recall, Brunnholzl outlines the non-Buddhist positions of the day..but perhaps not as clearly, or as an advocate would.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Son of Buddha » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:18 am

smcj wrote:
If i'm not mistaken he said Yogacara and cittamatra were not the same thing..........don't quote me on it I will have to skim through the Mountain Doctrine for it.

Well if Dolpopa said the same thing, then I'm going to say that the term "Yogacara" is now entirely ambiguous. Depending on who is using it, it could either mean "Mind Only" or "empty-of-other",


do you have the mountain Doctrine?

if you do turn to page 607,608-

If you don't then I think google books will allow you to "look inside" a book,there you can type in the page 607-608 it should allow you to read a limited amount of pages.........

dolpopa addresses the term "Mind Only" essentially he disagreed with the mind only school..BUT he states there are two different "mind only's"

one is of the Conventional Mind Only
the other is the Ultimate Mind Only

Dolpopa takes time on these pages to quote the sutras and tantras and seperate the teachings of Conventional Mind only from Ultimate Mind Only.

this goes to show that either before his time or during his time people had started to consider Citamatra(Conventional Mind Only) as being different from Yogacara(Ultimate Mind Only)

But other schools and teachers consider Citamatra and Yogacara to be the same thing......So I guess it all comes down to which realized teacher you think presents a better case.

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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:02 am

Greg, I haven't read this yet, but maybe it will have some helpful material:
Early Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: The Mahayana Context of the Gaudapadiya-Karika by Richard King
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Advaita-Vedanta-Buddhism-Gaudapadiya-Karika/dp/0791425142
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Greg » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:46 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Greg, I haven't read this yet, but maybe it will have some helpful material:
Early Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism: The Mahayana Context of the Gaudapadiya-Karika by Richard King
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Advaita-Vedanta-Buddhism-Gaudapadiya-Karika/dp/0791425142


Ah, that looks good - thank you. I will check it out.
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:07 am

Step outside of Buddhist philosophy/studies.

Probably the most influential Orthodox Indian response is Shankara, who charges Madhyamikas with nihilism:

http://www.amazon.com/Shankaras-Crest-J ... 0874810388

Start with the primary text and work your way out to commentaries, journal articles etc.

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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby Greg » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:58 am

tobes wrote:Step outside of Buddhist philosophy/studies.

Probably the most influential Orthodox Indian response is Shankara, who charges Madhyamikas with nihilism:

http://www.amazon.com/Shankaras-Crest-J ... 0874810388

Start with the primary text and work your way out to commentaries, journal articles etc.

:anjali:


That is what I am trying to do here. After 15 years of reading one side of an argument from a triumphalist perspective, it occurs to me that I could branch out a little :).
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby haha » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:14 pm

you can find many journals in Jstor.org as for the academic refutation or interpretation.
Sankaracharya had also refuted the view of emptiness in his commentaries of Upanisadas but not in Brahmasutra. Probably that's why many persons who only focus on Brahmasutra may think he did not give any refutation on emptiness.

Thrangu Rinpoche commentary on Two Views of Emptiness Shentong and Rangtong is really interesting.
http://www.amazon.com/Shentong-Rangtong-Two-Views-Emptiness/dp/1931571171

these books are supportive.
Edited by Paul Williams Vol.4 - Abhidharma and Madhyamaka
Ian Charles Harris - The Continuity of Madhyamaka and Yogacara in Indian Mahayana Buddhism

you can read following journals.
Did Nagarjuna Really Refute All Philosophical Views? By Richard H. Robinson
http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew23742.htm

DEPENDENT ARISING AND THE EMPTINESS OF EMPTINESS: WHY DID NAAGAARJUNA
START WITH CAUSATION? By Jay L. Garfield
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/garfild3.htm
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby hop.pala » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:18 pm

Taranatha's(Jonang) presentation of trisvabhava:
http://www.google.hu/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 3W2AMkIMHA
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Re: responses to Madhyamaka

Postby tobes » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:07 pm

Greg wrote:
tobes wrote:Step outside of Buddhist philosophy/studies.

Probably the most influential Orthodox Indian response is Shankara, who charges Madhyamikas with nihilism:

http://www.amazon.com/Shankaras-Crest-J ... 0874810388

Start with the primary text and work your way out to commentaries, journal articles etc.

:anjali:


That is what I am trying to do here. After 15 years of reading one side of an argument from a triumphalist perspective, it occurs to me that I could branch out a little :).


It's a very wise move - otherwise the project is more ideology than philosophy.

Perhaps it is best to start with the Sarvastivadins? It is interesting, is it not, that the triumphalist perspective - which is principally a 'triumph' over the Sarvastivadin ontology - has no living exponents, few if any scholarly defenders, few if any scholars who really 'get it.'

Almost everyone who reads the Sarvastivadins are already committed Madhyamikas....which is hardly a fair philosophical or hermeneutical strategy. Myself included, probably you included!

I think it is hard to understand without being a specialist in Abhidharma. There are some good journal articles though - Williams, P.M.; 'On the Abhidharma Ontology' in Journal of Indian Philosophy is an excellent starting place.

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