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Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma - Page 15 - Dhamma Wheel

Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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piotr
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby piotr » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:18 pm

Last edited by piotr on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

Nyana
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:30 pm


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piotr
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby piotr » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:35 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

vinasp
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby vinasp » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Hi everyone,

I have always understood the annihilationist view to be a view about the
self, and that it was rejected for that reason.

I have been concerned for some time about the confusion of this view with
others, such as materialism, nihilism, and the view that: "There is nothing
after death". The Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1) defines the annihilationist view
as follows:

4. Annihilationism (Ucchedavāda): Views 51–57

84. "There are, bhikkhus, some recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists and who on seven grounds proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being. And owing to what, with reference to what, do these honorable recluses and brahmins proclaim their views?

85. "Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: 'The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

Is this the same as the materialist view?

Is this the same as the nihilist view?

Regards, Vincent.

Nyana
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:46 pm


santa100
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby santa100 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:12 pm

I guess it depends on how we apply rebirth to our daily practice. MN48 and DN1 shows the wrong way of applying rebirth: just using it for mere talk and speculation; MN117 shows the correct way of application: actually using the right view to help carry out the practice of the 8NP..

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:31 pm


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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:42 pm

Last edited by Spiny O'Norman on Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:45 pm


vinasp
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby vinasp » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:46 pm

Hi everyone,

The process through which we come to believe something is rather obscure.
Most of us cannot simply believe whatever we like. Nor can we make ourselves
believe something just because someone else says that we should believe it.

All such pressure on people to believe something actually does is to make
people say that they believe it, when in fact, they do not.

Try making yourself believe that the earth is flat. Can you do it?

Regards, Vincent.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:54 pm


santa100
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby santa100 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:19 pm

Actually one doesn't believe just for the sake of believing. One believes so s/he could put it into practice. Believing in a flat earth won't help one achieving anything. Believeing in rebirth (or at least keep an open mind about its possibility) opens up great opportunities and potentials for one's own practice. At the very least, it helps one thinks twice before commiting any unskillful deeds, thus is a very skillful mean to help maintaining one's sila. And this is the gist of what the Buddha said in His Safe Bet Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ). And indeed the wisest course is to place one's bets with Him.. :smile:

vinasp
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby vinasp » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:24 pm

Hi Spiny,

Quote:
"That's how I understand it. In which case holding an annihalationist view must include a denial of rebirth and the realms. So if annihalationist view is wrong view, then rebirth denial must also be wrong view?"

On that reasoning, the eternalist view entails belief in rebirth and the realms.
So if the eternalist view is wrong, then affirmation of rebirth must also be
wrong.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:49 pm


nowheat
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:58 pm


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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:11 pm


nowheat
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:45 pm


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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:53 pm


Nyana
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby Nyana » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:33 pm


vinasp
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Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Postby vinasp » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Hi everyone,

Mike said:
"It seems clear that not holding a materialist-annihilationist view is mandatory.
Could we discuss what that would mean in practice?"

The Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1) describes those who hold the eternalist view
and the annihilationist view, which are both views about the self.

Anyone who has not yet removed the view of self, is bound to hold some
variation on these two views.

This is why DN 1 does not call these wrong views, nor does it ask lay
people to give up these views.

It describes how a monk, when he becomes enlightened, has transcended
these views.

DN 1.3.57
"When those ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past,
the future, or both, having fixed views, put forward views in sixty-
two different ways, that is conditioned by contact.

That all of these (Eternalists and the rest) should experience that
feeling without contact is impossible.

With regard to all of these .... they experience these feelings by
repeated contact through the six sense-bases, feeling conditions
craving, craving conditions clinging, clinging conditions becoming,
becoming conditions birth, birth conditions ageing and death, sorrow,
lamentation, sadness and distress.

"When a monk understands as they really are the arising and passing
away of the six bases of contact, their attraction and peril, and
the deliverance from them, he knows that which goes beyond all of
these views. [ DN 1.3.57 to 1.3.71 Walshe 1987.]

Regards, Vincent.


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