Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:09 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 1577
If you say, "sun is shinings in the sky", is that parikalpita, paratantra or parinishpanna?

_________________
svaha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 589
Quote:
If you say, "sun is shinings in the sky", is that parikalpita, paratantra or parinishpanna?


a very good question, but misguided in that it seeks knowledge where there is none to be found... however i will attempt to answer it by falling into discrimination to begin with and then i will answer from the position of non discrimination (parishpanna).

if i say spontaneously 'what a beautiful day': that is parishpanna, because it requires no contrived discrimination [i am discriminating when i say this; therefore i fall short of suchness].

it can be said that whenever we apply logic that we are falling into judgement or relativity (paratantra). there is very little difference between parikalpita and paratantra, both are seeing bubbles. though strictly speaking parikalpita is seeing a snake, not a rope. seeing the rope (paratantra) is still delusory.

now i will answer your question by applying no thought and reaching into my no mind/unconscious, the answer which follows i have no idea of whatsoever, it will be a spontaneous expression of stream of consciousness and therefore without judgement. it is however applying the great function to my speech... so here goes (parishpanna):

Quote:
give it a go! you will see that entering freedom, you can say whatever you want... that is parishpanna.


thinking without thinking... poetry in motion. its the only way to avoid the discriminating mind, or to just be naturally yourself.

finally one can argue by falling into logic that parikalpita, paratantra and parishpanna are all expressions of buddha nauture; but that too is limited. knowing suchness that things are just so (not even that) one is free to assert or deny whatever one wants {that too is limited and a falling into discrimination], actually whatever i say that resorts to logic is unsatisfactory. the only way to avoid complications is by ascending into the realms of the poetic.

you/i have the mental freedom to say whatever seems right to you/i at the time, but whatever answer i give you will be limited since it will by its very nature be discrimination/paratantra and illusory/parikalpita.

hope this is helpful Aemilius. i would have preferred to have given some poety in reply and so here it goes:

a time to give, a time to take,
a time to soar, a time to crawl.
speaking clearly i talk in riddles.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 1577
Thanks!
I think you are wrong (with Parinishpanna). There is something in the rope and snake. What is produced by conditions, ie paratantra in the case of the sun?
A tree grows from a seed, it needs air, water, earth, & light, which are its conditions. What are the cause and conditions of the sun?

_________________
svaha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 589
i dont see any conditions nor do i see any existence. could you please explain what you mean by parinishpanna. i am interested to learn how you understand it. my knowledge of this matter is 'superficial'? to me, parinishpanna (supreme knowledge) cant be known and thus one knows it.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 1577
Before attaining parinishpanna one can study for ex astronomy, where one can learn many things about the formation of stars, (our Sun is one of the stars in space). In this way we can attain knowledge about the causes and conditions of stars, and attain the seeing of stars (or suns) as conditionally rising phenomena, ie as paratantra. However, this will take years of studying astronomy, in my experience.
I don't venture to say something quite superficial about parinishpanna.

_________________
svaha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 589
you can say what you want about parinishpanna, but conventionally it is supreme wisdom. one shouldnt really even be afraid to discriminate. supreme wisdom from non discrimination would be:

two rabbits in a field, one munches the grass, the other keeps watch.

sounds like a riddle, but actually its not meant to be. it is just complete freedom to accept or reject any dharmas. liberation of mind. ill try again:

a bat meets a hedgehog, both know how to fly.

by the above i avoid any conceptual definitions of parinishpanna, which is completly inscrutible and beyond all analysis (nothing can be said about it); or is perfectly expressed in the smile of a child, or the charging of a bull. and you can say anything you want.

thats my take on parinishpanna. im sure someone else could come up with any dharma whatsoever to express this. some would say: neither rejecting nor accepting any dharma; another would say whatever he wants.

and finally: in the city there are many towerblocks. tall is just tall, short is just short.

hope this is helpful.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:21 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am
Posts: 1577
White Lotus wrote:
you can say what you want about parinishpanna, but conventionally it is supreme wisdom. one shouldnt really even be afraid to discriminate. supreme wisdom from non discrimination would be:

two rabbits in a field, one munches the grass, the other keeps watch.

sounds like a riddle, but actually its not meant to be. it is just complete freedom to accept or reject any dharmas. liberation of mind. ill try again:

a bat meets a hedgehog, both know how to fly.

by the above i avoid any conceptual definitions of parinishpanna, which is completly inscrutible and beyond all analysis (nothing can be said about it); or is perfectly expressed in the smile of a child, or the charging of a bull. and you can say anything you want.

thats my take on parinishpanna. im sure someone else could come up with any dharma whatsoever to express this. some would say: neither rejecting nor accepting any dharma; another would say whatever he wants.

and finally: in the city there are many towerblocks. tall is just tall, short is just short.

hope this is helpful.

best wishes, Tom.


I'm afraid You wont make it to the hall of fame of Zen with that garbage.

Again: Sun is shining in the sky.

This is normally imaginary nature or constructed own-being (Parikalpita), i.e. you imagine the entity "sun" (and the entities "shining" and "sky"), based on your visual perception and your previous knowledge and experience stored in your memory. Thus you can say: "Sun" etc..

If You lived somewhere in ancient China, You would know that Sun is a disk made of fire-crystals. (The explanations how the sun has originated, according to the Abhidharma or Sutra, appear to have been lost. So we don't know much about that.) Anyway, there has been an explanation of sun, or a psychic perception of the sun, and a supernormal perception of its causes and conditions. This has been a source of valid knowledge in the past society and in the buddhist view of existence, at least in the past it was.
This belongs to the understanding of Paratantra or dependent nature, dependent own-being. Seeing a phenomenon as caused, changing and impermanent in nature.
How can you attain knowledge and experience that there is no sun at all, independent of our perception, as Buddhism claims?

_________________
svaha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 589
Quote:
How can you attain knowledge and experience that there is no sun at all, independent of our perception, as Buddhism claims?


you attain knowledge of emptiness by looking within and seeing your own nature. you see it is empty and thus you see all things are empty. looking at the emptiness within you see the emptiness without. this in my experience has been the seeing of emptiness of sun. that there is no sun. that is the direct way.

conceptually you can arrive at the knowledge of emptiness through a process of deconstruction of all concepts finding none of them as satisfactory explanations of reality, but this method is limited and is merely intellectual. it is also biased towards emptiness and in denial about fullness.

there are two sides to existence... emptiness and fullness, both are equally valid and interdependent and yet negate each other. the teaching on emptiness neutralizes pleasure and pain and so contributes to overcoming suffering. the teaching on emptiness neutralizes our binding to the extremes of binary/dualistic clinging. normally we see all things in binary terms and so if we are not in pleasure we are suffering (as some see it). but if one embraces the neutral teaching of emptiness and rejects pleasure one can overcome pain. this requires discipline, but not personal sacrifice. it should be a comfortable process.

emptiness is, emptiness isnt, emptiness is all there is, form is all there is, both form and emptiness, two sides of one coin. neither form nor emptiness is the coin. form the head, emptiness the tail, merely appearances; absolutely real, both and yet neither. be free. free your mind.

you dont need to tell me how appalling the stream of consciousness is. i know! sorry! anyway, one should be freed to make discriminations, why attach to nonconceptual no thought and be averse to concept. all dharmas as aspects of fundamental reality. every dharma followed with true faith to complete infinite perfection in its own right. free to accept, free to reject.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm
Posts: 158
The eight consciousnesses are a product of our dualistic mind, the nature of our mind has always been equal to a Buddha. An explanation of the process of transformation of the unenlightened mind to the enlightened mind:
"Enlightenment consists in bringing the eight consciousnesses to an end,replacing them with enlightened cognitive abilities (jñāna). Overturning the Basis turns the five sense consciousnesses into immediate cognitions that accomplish what needs to be done (kṛtyānuṣṭhāna-jñāna). The sixth consciousness becomes immediate cognitive mastery (pratyavekṣaṇa-jñāna), in which the general and particular characteristics of things are discerned just as they are. This discernment is considered nonconceptual (nirvikalpa-jñāna). Manas becomes the immediate cognition of equality (samatā-jñāna), equalizing self and other. When the Warehouse Consciousness finally ceases it is replaced by the Great Mirror Cognition (Mahādarśa-jñāna) that sees and reflects things just as they are, impartially, without exclusion, prejudice, anticipation, attachment, or distortion." http://www.acmuller.net/yogacara/articles/intro.html

_________________
"It cuts the root of the mind;
It cuts the root of the five poisonous emotions
And the extreme views, which become the causes for meditation;
As well as conduct accompanied by inadequacy, hope, fear,
And pride— because it cuts all of these,
It is defined as Chöd."
Aryadeva

"Firstly with the thought of “I”, they cling to self,
And then with “mine”, they grow attached to things,
Helplessly, they wander like a turning waterwheel."
Candrakīrti

"'A great yogi' simply means being free from attachment and clinging." Guru Padma


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 589
Sun is shining in the sky. what does it mean? just: sun is shining in the sky.

as a direct cognition this is just as it is; parinishpanna (without contrivance, naturally so). this same statement if not spontaneous could be considered to be paratantra and parikalpita. as it is, it is just: sun is shining in the sky. ultimately all this is just parinishpanna, when seen correctly. cognitions, perceptions, discriminations etc... ''all'' parinishpanna and always has been.

Quote:
When the Warehouse Consciousness finally ceases it is replaced by the Great Mirror Cognition (Mahādarśa-jñāna) that sees and reflects things just as they are, impartially, without exclusion, prejudice, anticipation, attachment, or distortion


attachment to words such as parinishpanna, is just attatchment to words. that is the higest dharma. rejection of words such as parinishpanna, is just rejection of words. that is the highest dharma. the sun is shining in the sky; i am typing at the computer, direct experience is the highest dharma. direct experience is not the highest dharma. free to choose or reject any of these positions. all mind games.

if i say to you i am enlightenment as are you i delude you; but if i say you and i are not enlightenment i also delude you. if i say to you that i am enlightenment as are you i tell you the truth; but if i say you and i are not enlightenment i also tell you the truth.

yes; the sun is shining in the sky today and it is radiant. thats all.

Vajrasvapna, thank you for your helpful quote on the cessation of the 8 consciousnesses, very helpful.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 1:45 pm
Posts: 158
White Lotus wrote:
Vajrasvapna, thank you for your helpful quote on the cessation of the 8 consciousnesses, very helpful.

The text is very beautiful, it explains well how the eight consciousness are transformed into the five wisdoms of Buddha.

_________________
"It cuts the root of the mind;
It cuts the root of the five poisonous emotions
And the extreme views, which become the causes for meditation;
As well as conduct accompanied by inadequacy, hope, fear,
And pride— because it cuts all of these,
It is defined as Chöd."
Aryadeva

"Firstly with the thought of “I”, they cling to self,
And then with “mine”, they grow attached to things,
Helplessly, they wander like a turning waterwheel."
Candrakīrti

"'A great yogi' simply means being free from attachment and clinging." Guru Padma


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm
Posts: 589
I have for a while recognised the rigidity and stubbornness of thoughts. thought persists even when the manas is exinct. by asking Death to slay ones thinking mind and all thoughts a more thorough relinquishment of ordinary thought occurs. thoughts become purer and more subtle than clouds, like motes of dust. though thoughts have been slain, one is still able to think, its just that the nature of thoughts has changed and one spends much of ones time without any kind of thought at all.

when focusing on thought nature after the death of thought, there is a complete absence of thought and yet... still thinking. when one is not mindful of thoughts in their extinct nature there is a seeing that knowing (which has replaced thought) has become like a cloud of light, instead of the black beans of ordinary thought. Pure not stubborn and coarse.

asking Death to slay ones thoughts can seem a bit radical, but in my own experience I was only able to refine thought nature to a high degree of purity through focused meditation. now there is total purity.

hope this is helpful, best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group