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Phassa (contact) - Dhamma Wheel

Phassa (contact)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Phassa (contact)

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:07 am

What if the eyes are open but there is no "contacting"? Is this possible and if yes then how should such a state be described in conventional terms?


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:22 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:40 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:45 am

Last edited by Nyana on Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:46 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:52 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:58 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:10 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby ground » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:31 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:35 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:50 am

Greetings TMingyur,

I agree with your assessments. Accordingly, I think you will find much of interest in the topic mentioned above by Geoff.

In the meantime, I think venerable Nanavira provides a definition of phassa you may be interested in.

Phassa
http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=76

One thing to bear in mind... whatever phassa arises for the puthujjana or the sekha in the dependent origination sequence, is the same phassa that ceases when it is in the cessation sequence for the arahant who has brought an end to avijja (see SN 12.15).

Your interpretation of phassa aligns with the dependent cessation sequence and does not (after it has ceased) leave the arahant bumbling as a deaf, dumb or blind mute, prior to him/her achieving the cessation of dukkha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:23 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:52 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:56 pm


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:18 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:20 am

For all of that, the one thing I wanted addressed was the issue of epistemology anf that was not addressed.

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby Sylvester » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:28 am

Hi retro.

Do you think it might be possible to avoid labelling views as "realist"? I hate to say it, but it just sounds like a "pop" philosophy sound-byte.

If one were criticising the "sarvam asti" or svabhava "realism" of the Sarvastivadins as "Realism", I think the limited context would probably be quite appropriate in a specialised discussion.

But, given the many shades and colours of "Realism" in both Western and Eastern world-views, I am not sure if "Realism" should be used so loosely.

For example, we have the Pali Abhidhammic notion of sabhava, but which the Commentators are quick to sanitise into a notion of "that which is being borne by its own conditions"; how much "realism" is left in this?

Or how about the many instances of "atthi" and "natthi" used by the Buddha in the Canon to describe states? We of course accept that when a dhamma "atthi", it is so by virtue of DO (the very same point given by the Commentary to the Dhammasangani above quoted). Likewise when a dhamma "natthi" - that goes by way of DC. Does this make the Buddha a "conventional" realist?

Personally, I don't think the Buddha was interested in the ontological implications of "atthi" and "natthi" for the world out there. The standard translation offered as the 2 philosophical extremes to be abandoned are "Everything exists" and "Everything does not exist" (eg SN 12.15). I think the "everything" should simply be "The All", discussed in SN 35.23 and SN 35.24. Certainly, the All do include the external kāmā out "there", but I don't recall any DO discussions that address the state of the kāmā - DO is invariably applied to our internal world.

Even Ven Nanavira slips into "conventional" realism when he says "though both are objective in the experience". :tongue:

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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:41 am


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Re: Phassa (contact)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:42 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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