Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:52 pm

Got it! Thanks.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Kai
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Kai » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:00 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:04 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Kai
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Kai » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:07 pm


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rang.drol
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby rang.drol » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:24 am


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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:41 pm


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cloudburst
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby cloudburst » Fri May 18, 2012 7:59 pm


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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 18, 2012 8:27 pm

Hi Cloudburst

Based on what I've read thus far, I touched upon what you are asking in the following post:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8318&start=240#p100527

Also there's still on the first page of the Mahamudra subforum, a Mahamudra/Dzogchen thread with an older debate about this topic as well.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 18, 2012 9:26 pm

Better than my previously-referenced "New Age garbage" post, try this:

*Edit* Since Dharmawheel can't handle that long of a Google link, just copy & paste all of these words in a Google search:

site:dharmawheel.net "Alaya" OR "Ālaya" "gZhi" OR "Basis" OR "Ground" "Āvidya" OR "Avidya" OR "ignorance"

Another thing about my New Age post, I think it's wrong to have said that Mahamudra Direct Introduction would introduce one to the Ālaya. Because I don't doubt that the Mahamudra Direct Introduction is to the Nature of Mind. It just might be that the Direct Introduction to the Nature of Mind of Mahamudra is in the context of the Ālaya rather than the Laya, Sthana, gZhi, or Asraya/Ashraya. Then again, maybe if a Direct Introduction isn't in the context of the gZhi, then it isn't really the Nature of Mind in the complete sense. Then again, again, maybe when Mahamudra says Kunzhi, they are actually referring to gZhi; yet simply happen to be mixing up terminologies.

It seems that what Alexander Berzin is implying—as he is quoted on this page of this thread and elsewhere—is that Kagyu/Gelug Mahamudra meditation only goes as far as the Ālaya/Kunzhi, whereas Dzogchen has Knowledge of the gZhi.

Andrew108
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 18, 2012 9:54 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 18, 2012 10:20 pm

Yeah, Andrew108, it's certainly difficult for me at this point to say as to whether or not what Jnana quoted here from Tsele Natsok Rangdrol and other teachers, can be reconciled with the apparent differences that Malcolm and Alexander Berzin have referred to.

(Although I think that Tsele Natsok Rangdrol is referring to Ground Mahamudra or Essence Mahamudra, and Alexander Berzin is referring to Tantra Mahamudra)

It's a balance too I think. You can say just practice and don't worry about it; however if someone hears that, they might think that they might as well practice Chan or Zen and dispense with Vajrayana. But this might be ignoring Vajrayana's assertion that non-Tantra vehicles (like Chan) take even Kalpas to realize Buddhahood, that is practiced by themselves. And unless someone has accumulated massive amounts of merit over many lives, Zen practice alone might not do them much good if they're close to exhausting their merit for taking human-body rebirths.

At the same time, one could spend their whole life studying and nit-picking, and not even ever directly experience Bodhicitta, even though they consider themselves to be a Dzogchen practitioner.

All that each one can do—as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says—is to do our best.

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cloudburst
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Re: Dzogchen and Buddhism

Postby cloudburst » Fri May 18, 2012 10:37 pm


Andrew108
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Fri May 18, 2012 10:39 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 18, 2012 10:52 pm


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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Fri May 18, 2012 11:09 pm

Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Fri May 18, 2012 11:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jnana
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Jnana » Fri May 18, 2012 11:17 pm


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cloudburst
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby cloudburst » Fri May 18, 2012 11:49 pm


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Lhug-Pa
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Lhug-Pa » Sat May 19, 2012 12:13 am


Andrew108
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Sat May 19, 2012 7:32 am

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.


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