Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby thigle » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:05 pm

muni wrote:
thigle wrote:It seems in every way, that some people confuse "tantric preliminaries" with "dzogchen" and the "natural state" with an "artificial state".


Discussions so to speak comes out of nature or better said are an expression of nature. This makes clear that nature comes not out of discussions. Like a fish is in the ocean, the ocean is not in the fish.

Since all is compassion, there is spontaneous help by awaken nature and no thing is too much in order to help us to recognize.


Such mix-up far away from discriminative wisdom doesn't help. It makes disorientation.
This is the time of Kaliyuga, the time of great degeneration
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby muni » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:26 pm

thigle wrote:
muni wrote:
thigle wrote:It seems in every way, that some people confuse "tantric preliminaries" with "dzogchen" and the "natural state" with an "artificial state".


Discussions so to speak comes out of nature or better said are an expression of nature. This makes clear that nature comes not out of discussions. Like a fish is in the ocean, the ocean is not in the fish.

Since all is compassion, there is spontaneous help by awaken nature and no thing is too much in order to help us to recognize.


Such mix-up far away from discriminative wisdom doesn't help. It makes disorientation.


The awaken compassion is not going to lead the student astray. It is for me not important at all whether we talk about mahamudra or dzogchen or whatever, these labels have no any true existence. There are no awaken ones who discard any help when minds aren't ripen or temporary disturbed to recognize, and so to offer methods to make this possible. Awaken nature sees all is equal perfect nature and simple helps to recognize.
Maybe as I heard about that, those who recognized a moment, can run astray by keep seeking out there or falling back in the woods of conceptual thoughts or whatever tempory disturbation.

Can be, I really don't know.
Last edited by muni on Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:20 pm

Intenselight wrote:
anjali wrote:
mutsuk wrote:With Thögel you don't visualize, you contemplate the arising of the dynamism of your natural state.

The dynamism of the natural state could also be contemplated through sound. An approach that seems not much discussed, even by way of theory. I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on this.



In the book Tibetan Yogas Of Body Speech And Mind by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, at the page 128 you will find this chapter: "The Practice of Pure Inner Sound from Kundrol Dakpa". I wonder if this is what you are referring to.. I am also very curious how exactly could the dynamism of the natural state be contemplated through sound.


This was already presented in a complete form in JLA's The Dawn of Awareness (pp. 108-110) in appendix II of the book :

Appendix II —The Practice of the Sound of Awareness 108
1. The practice proper 108
2. The training method 109
3. The purpose of the practice 110

http://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Practic ... 477&sr=1-4
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby thigle » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:22 pm

Hi muni,

muni wrote:The awaken compassion is not going to lead the student astray. It is for me not important at all whether we talk about mahamudra or dzogchen or whatever, these labels have no any true existence. There are no awaken ones who discard any help when minds aren't ripen to recognize, and so to offer methods to make this possible. Awaken nature sees all is equal perfect nature and simple help to recognize.


there's something like "compassion" which gives one "good spiritual feelings" while he "remain" in that, and there's compassion complementary to wisdom, in which one cannot "remain", because there's primordially no need for a base. There are a lot of possible methods, thats right, but a lot of methods including a lot of possible different outputs. If one mixed-up this outputs far away from discriminative wisdom, it makes only disorientation and opened the way for the lot of traps. For me it's about these "different outputs", relative independently of the names one gives the methods.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby muni » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:33 pm

thigle wrote:Hi muni,

muni wrote:The awaken compassion is not going to lead the student astray. It is for me not important at all whether we talk about mahamudra or dzogchen or whatever, these labels have no any true existence. There are no awaken ones who discard any help when minds aren't ripen to recognize, and so to offer methods to make this possible. Awaken nature sees all is equal perfect nature and simple help to recognize.


there's something like "compassion" which gives one "good spiritual feelings" while he "remain" in that, and there's compassion complementary to wisdom, in which one cannot "remain", because there's primordially no need for a base. There are a lot of possible methods, thats right, but a lot of methods including a lot of possible different outputs. If one mixed-up this outputs far away from discriminative wisdom, it makes only disorientation and opened the way for the lot of traps. For me it's about these "different outputs", relative independently of the names one gives the methods.


I should say, only if we are mixing up, is there a problem. Then there are methods, for all beings.
When there is guidance by Awaken Nature, there should be confidence that there is no mixing up methods in a way to run astray. This confidence and trust is very important.

:namaste:
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:48 pm

mutsuk wrote:In the perspective of the practice of Thögel, Rigpa remains conceptual at the level of Trekchö because its dynamism has not be "activated".


If such dynamism naturally unfolds from rigpa, there is nothing need to be done besides being in the state of rigpa. Being in the nature of mind is what mahamudra is all about, still, there are no such visions as in thogal. Trekcho is also being in the nature of mind, but no visions there either. So, either only in thogal one rests in the natural state and everyone else is deluded, or there are certain factors that induce the visions, and in that case it is a willingly used method. As you say, outside of thogal the natural state is a conceptual fabrication, so while others claim that their meditation is free from concepts, you deny that. Such a perspective is equal to saying that only one's own system is true and the rest are false, although here I fail to see the reason behind that, as I don't see how mahamudra (and others) still maintain a conceptual state.

With the two stages you do something with your mind , you visualize. With Thögel you don't visualize, you contemplate the arising of the dynamism of your natural state.


That depends whether only thogal knows of the nature of mind or others too.

They are natural visions not visualizations imagined by the mind.


Don't they occur to the mind, aren't they experienced within mind? If yes, they are no different from any other phenomena, being mental fabrications without any substance. If no, they are not experienced at all. Or is there a second mind besides mind?
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:52 pm

thigle wrote:And if knowledge/transparency is "stabilised" while you looking at the sky like you looking at the sky, typical thögal-"developments" appear, because there's no grasping.


Then it should occur to everyone without grasping, not only those following the dzogchen teachings. However, they are not really discussed anywhere else. Or, those visions are induced by looking at the sky, remaining in darkness, and similar conditions conducive to visions.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:13 pm

Astus wrote:
Then it should occur to everyone...


They do, but very few people understand what they are.
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http://atikosha.org
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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:The visions in dzogchen are not conceptual constructs like visualizations of the creation and completion stage.


Do those visions occur without any instruction or method whatsoever? If yes, then there's little point in teaching it. If no, how are they not conceptual constructs? True, during the creation stage one methodically and regularly needs to build up the visualisation, while in thogal one needs to let it unfold into a complex vision, and I'm not debating this difference in the method.

However, normal dreams are not intentionally created by oneself, still they are understood as conceptual constructs. Everyday experience of houses, trees, people, etc. are not intentionally created, but they are also conceptual constructs. Even the language is not something one creates for oneself, but it is clearly a conceptual construct. Visions of shamans and mystiques are not taken to be their own imagination, but they are mental creations nevertheless.

Visions in thogal have a special status based on the idea that because one remains in rigpa, it is not one's own doing. However, remaining in rigpa does not eliminate the six senses, does it? Still, lights, noises, etc. are not given any special status there, they are not the natural unfolding of the nature of mind.

It is not really a process of removing afflictions, it is more of a process of afflictions becoming undone on their own.


Being in the natural state is being free from afflictions, isn't it? One practises thogal by remaining in rigpa, that is, free from afflictions and concepts, so why the need for afflictions to unfold? True, this is a good explanation to back up the need for further practice and using thogal after one has ascertained the nature of mind and gained a stable footing in trekcho, so I'm not questioning the efficacy of the teaching, the method and the tradition. However, it seems somewhat illogical to me to say that on the one hand the nature of mind is the nature of buddha, and on the other that at the same time there are karmic imprints to clear out, because this presupposes that there are two minds.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Astus wrote:If such dynamism naturally unfolds from rigpa, there is nothing need to be done besides being in the state of rigpa. Being in the nature of mind is what mahamudra is all about, still, there are no such visions as in thogal. Trekcho is also being in the nature of mind, but no visions there either. So, either only in thogal one rests in the natural state and everyone else is deluded, or there are certain factors that induce the visions, and in that case it is a willingly used method. As you say, outside of thogal the natural state is a conceptual fabrication, so while others claim that their meditation is free from concepts, you deny that.

It's not me or not me only. Longchenpa denies that, Shardza Rinpoche denies that, Yongdzin Rinpoche denies that, JLA denies that. These people know what thogel is about and they deny that for good reasons. If you can, you should read the introductory passage of the thod-rgal section in the Yeshe Lama for instance or in the dByings-rig-mdzod. This is explained at length, dealing with the superiorities (from 7 to 10 kinds of them) of Thögel over Trekchö.

Such a perspective is equal to saying that only one's own system is true and the rest are false,

This is what Dzogchen says and in particular Dzogchen Tantras. Don't blame me. From a Dzogchen perspective, everything that is not Dzogchen is incomplete. If you read sPyi-ti or Yang-ti tantras you'll see how the rhetoric of negating the validity of other paths is developed.

although here I fail to see the reason behind that, as I don't see how mahamudra (and others) still maintain a conceptual state.

It is because Rigpa is not seen in its nakedness and not in its full evidence (mngon sum du).

With the two stages you do something with your mind , you visualize. With Thögel you don't visualize, you contemplate the arising of the dynamism of your natural state.


That depends whether only thogal knows of the nature of mind or others too.

It does not depend on that. Practices performed during the two stages are performed within the experience of the mind and with the mind. In Thôgel, the visions arise naturally, they are not created by the mind.

They are natural visions not visualizations imagined by the mind.


Don't they occur to the mind, aren't they experienced within mind?

No there are "seen" in the state of Rigpa because they are the glow of rigpa arising in its visionary mode. The mind has nothing to do with that since its function is merely grasping.

If yes, they are no different from any other phenomena, being mental fabrications without any substance.

It's no. THey are not mental fabrications, they are the visionary expression of the glow of Rigpa.

If no, they are not experienced at all.

Yes they are experienced. It's not because you don't understand the process of these visionary arisings that they don't arise. The visions are called the Body of Rigpa (rig-pa'i sku), meaning the real expression of Rigpa.

Or is there a second mind besides mind?

The mind (sems) is conditioned, Mind-itself (sems-nyid) is not. The ordinary mind (sems) functions in the mode (tshul) of ignorance (ma-rig-pa) while Mind (sems-nyid) functions in the mode of Rigpa. If you have not been introduced to Rigpa (not to the sapiential aspect in standard DI, but through the 21 DI of Thogel), then you have no possibility to know what this is all about.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:They do, but very few people understand what they are.


Shouldn't it be widespread at least within Tibetan Buddhism then? Many mahamudra teachers were and are familiar with dzogchen.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:28 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:They do, but very few people understand what they are.


Shouldn't it be widespread at least within Tibetan Buddhism then? Many mahamudra teachers were and are familiar with dzogchen.


There are a lot of people who teach one thing but practice another.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:32 pm

Astus wrote:Do those visions occur without any instruction or method whatsoever?

They may arise to some people without instructions. However, they will not develop beyond a very limited threshold which is only the very first stage of the first vision. Practically anybody can reach that. However, the characteristics of the visions of Thôgel is that they increase throughout the path until a stage in which they reach their full measure. This will never occur to anyone without proper instruction.

If yes, then there's little point in teaching it.

In fact it's no, not in the way the visions develop. Do you understand what these visions are ?

If no, how are they not conceptual constructs?

because they are the expression of the dynamism of Rigpa (rig-pa'i rtsal). This is not something that one can experience within the ordinary confines of the mind.

True, during the creation stage one methodically and regularly needs to build up the visualisation, while in thogal one needs to let it unfold into a complex vision, and I'm not debating this difference in the method.

Ok, but do you see the difference ?

However, normal dreams are not intentionally created by oneself, still they are understood as conceptual constructs.

It's because they are the product of karmic causes. THogel visions are not such products.

Everyday experience of houses, trees, people, etc. are not intentionally created, but they are also conceptual constructs.

Sure,these are impure karmic perceptions. Thogel visions are pure.

Even the language is not something one creates for oneself, but it is clearly a conceptual construct.

Thogel visions have nothing to do with something that is limited diachronically such as language.
Visions of shamans and mystiques are not taken to be their own imagination, but they are mental creations nevertheless.

yes but these are not Thogel visions. There is a difference between such visions of a shaman and the thogel visions of a practitioner of thogel. Not every thing that is described as a vision is a Thogel vision. Despite their gigantic variety, there is a typology of the thogel visions.

Visions in thogal have a special status based on the idea that because one remains in rigpa, it is not one's own doing. However, remaining in rigpa does not eliminate the six senses, does it?

No, but the visions are not objects of the senses. If you close your eyes, they arise anyway. They arise in the dark where your senses cannot perceive anything. They are not objects of the senses.

Still, lights, noises, etc. are not given any special status there, they are not the natural unfolding of the nature of mind.

They are karmic perceptions. THogel visions are not like this.
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:37 pm

mutsuk wrote:No, but the visions are not objects of the senses. If you close your eyes, they arise anyway. They arise in the dark where your senses cannot perceive anything. They are not objects of the senses.



Just to elaborate a point here: they are an entopic phenomena which arise based on a very precise kind of subtle anatomy which is unique to Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby muni » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:31 pm

thigle wrote:
...there's something like "compassion" which gives one "good spiritual feelings" while he "remain" in that, and there's compassion complementary to wisdom, in which one cannot "remain", because there's primordially no need for a base.


Yes. I think this is describing conventional and absolute bodhichitta.

:smile:
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:38 pm

mutsuk wrote:From a Dzogchen perspective, everything that is not Dzogchen is incomplete.


Claiming superiority over others is not a unique idea. The result of such a view is that there are many different sects, as they simply fail to convince each other. It seems many Kagyu teachers are more easy going in this regard. For example those already quoted at the beginning of this topic, and people like Lama Shang:

Just this mind alone, which is completely empty, clear, aware, and lucid, is what is called the perfection of wisdom, luminosity, mahamudra, dzokchen, and dharmakaya.
(Mahamudra and Related Instructions, p 77)

or Tsele Natsok Rangdrol:

Resting in the unaltered mind is the essential meaning of all the countless, profound, and vast meditation instructions, such as mahamudra, dzokchen, result as the path (lamdre), severance (cho), and pacification (shiche). Nevertheless, these different kinds of instructions exist because individuals differ in their understanding.
(p 301)

THey are not mental fabrications, they are the visionary expression of the glow of Rigpa.


The nature of mind is without beginning or end, the visionary expressions are not. As they have beginning and end, they are dependently arisen, and as such, they are fabrications.

The mind (sems) is conditioned, Mind-itself (sems-nyid) is not. The ordinary mind (sems) functions in the mode (tshul) of ignorance (ma-rig-pa) while Mind (sems-nyid) functions in the mode of Rigpa.


Can their be a function that is not conditioned? That would mean eternal existence.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby davyji » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
mutsuk wrote:No, but the visions are not objects of the senses. If you close your eyes, they arise anyway. They arise in the dark where your senses cannot perceive anything. They are not objects of the senses.



Just to elaborate a point here: they are an entopic phenomena which arise based on a very precise kind of subtle anatomy which is unique to Dzogchen.


Thank you Malcolm for making this distinction.

Although I do not share much here at dharmawheel i browse certain threads which are quite interesting!
I have a story with paraphrasing and no citations...
3-4 years ago listening to ChNN in the middle of a winter night (ChNN was teaching from Europe & i live in Utah USA) the Green Tara practice. It was 1AM on a weeknight, i had work that day and the following morning, yet i was listening to all his webcasts those years. He was not really into teaching Green Tara that night and paraphrasing, Rinpoche began talking...
about what is really necessary to practice dzogchen. He said that we really do not need Green Tara, or even alot of the ritualistic practices or preliminary teachings, that all we really need is guru yoga,awareness/openness and OmAhHum. In that moment as he elaborated his position a precision concerning dzogchen became clearer to me. This precision had been introduced before,by ChNN & others, yet this time his words spoke directly to the essence of dzogchen teachings and his own practice.
He continued repeating this for a few minutes acknowledging that this was not what everyone wanted to hear,then went on to teach Green Tara, since everyone had showed up to do Green Tara, he said. I was really opened up, skipping the Green Tara practice, went and laid down in bed to contemplate what he was talking about. Over the following week i expressed what he said on E-Sangha and no one collaborated what i had heard Rinpoche say, although many were in attendance at that Green Tara webcast, although i am confident others heard him as clearly as i did.

This precise approach changed my practices, it simplified, was easier to integrate and found myself dropping into contemplation more often during the day initiated with simple practices like 9 purification breaths & then OmAhHum (as jamlung/barlung). The precision is key, is what attracted me to dzogchen initially and is what keeps my interest currently.

love light space
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:49 pm

mutsuk wrote:No, but the visions are not objects of the senses. If you close your eyes, they arise anyway. They arise in the dark where your senses cannot perceive anything. They are not objects of the senses.


Dreams and imagination are not objects of the physical senses either, and it doesn't mean they are anything extraordinary.

Still, lights, noises, etc. are not given any special status there, they are not the natural unfolding of the nature of mind.

They are karmic perceptions. THogel visions are not like this.


Differentiating between products of mind and products of rigpa means separating mind and rigpa. Either then mind and rigpa separated as difference between ignorance and wisdom - both are functions of the same mental continuum - or they are separated as minds of two different beings. If they are like two different beings, it makes no sense to me to have two minds. If they are functions of the same mental continuum, it is not possible to have both function at the same time, thus either everything is perceived with ignorance or with wisdom. In other words, either everything is the product of karma or the vision of enlightenment.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:51 pm

Astus wrote:
The nature of mind is without beginning or end, the visionary expressions are not. As they have beginning and end, they are dependently arisen, and as such, they are fabrications.



Astus: this is not correct.

You may think of this way. You have a film on a movie projector. As you focus the image on the screen, the image appears to become brighter and more clear. But you have not changed or altered the film inside of the projector in anyway.

Likewise, though the visions appear to increase and decrease, they are not actually increasing and decreasing.

You can consider them to the visible expression of the mind essence, this is why these appearances are termed wisdom appearances since they do not arise from mind.

But this is just explaining sweet to someone who has obviously never tasted sugar.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Mahāmudrā & Dzogchen

Postby Intenselight » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:55 pm

mutsuk wrote:
This was already presented in a complete form in JLA's The Dawn of Awareness (pp. 108-110) in appendix II of the book :

Appendix II —The Practice of the Sound of Awareness 108
1. The practice proper 108
2. The training method 109
3. The purpose of the practice 110

http://www.amazon.com/Awareness-Practic ... 477&sr=1-4



Thanks!
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