oldbob wrote:From inside the Lion...
That's great, now can you relate that back to Mahamudra since the discussion is Mahamudra and Dzogchen and we are in the Mahamudra section of the forum?
Greetings to all and ALL,
Executive summary: it is all slices from the same baklava: experience.
Since I know little of Dzogchen and less of Mahamudra It is totally absurd to try to answer your questions, but in the spirit of a rusty hinge giving voice, when the door is moved by the wind, I will do my best.
I think the first question is whether there is a difference between the view / experience of the storehouse consciousness and base consciousness between Dzogchen and Mahamudra.
I think the second question is whether a practitioner of Dzogchen is missing something if they don't also practice / study Mahamudra and vv.
First question. Human experience is human experience. Mostly, we are wired the same. You may like Retsena and I like Brunello, Tibetans like barley beer, but each will get you drunk. You may call it "πιωμένος," and I call it "drunk" but the experience is the same. In the old days the practitioners would be up on the mountains, in their caves and huts, practicing. Sometimes they would run out of salt and they would then knock on their neighbors door to borrow some salt. Serious practitioners from all the schools helped each other and they would share the salt, tea and barley and butter. They also talked about practice. They also gave "pointing out instruction" to each other. I am sure there were some friendly, "My pointing out is bigger than yours," competitions. I am sure that going beyond limits, some would do practices from each tradition. Over the many centuries, I think that things became a little blurred. It may be that some of the living Great Masters, who are accomplished Masters in both traditions, ChNNR, Dzogchen Penlop Rinpoche, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamsto Rinpoche, Lama Wangdor Rinpoche, Cho Kyi Nyima Rinpoche, and his brothers, Lho Ontul Rinpoche, and many others, could give you a guided tour through the pointing out instructions in both traditions.
I should mention that all of the 5 or so Drikung Kargu Lamas whom I have met, also hold both traditions through the precious Yangzab lineage. Note that Ven. Lho Ontul Rinpoche, a renowned Drikung Kargu Lama, is teaching, "Trekcho Dzogchen Pith Practice Instructions: Garab Dorje's Three Words That Strike The Vital Point," and many, many other practices, at DDCV in Vermont from the 14th th 24th of June, 2012.http://ddcv.com/
Maybe if you ask them nicely they will web cast it.
I am also sure you will find Nyinmapa, Bonpo, Sakya and Gelugpa Lamas who hold both lineages, but who do not speak of this because of politics.
It may be possible that from the guided tour, you will be able to discern subtle experiential differences in the lineal transmissions of the pointing out instructions, but I don't think so. I also do not think that the Masters would do would do this for you. It is not important. What is important is that you get any direct experience yourself. Whether you "get it" from Dzogchen, Mahamudra, or from the gradualist methods of "creative visualization" and "absorption," doesn't matter. Though the views are different from the top of this
mountain or that
mountain, the view from any
mountain is different from the view in the valley. The key point is that you are not in Kansas anymore: meaning, that you now have a new way of seeing, a new perspective on everything, that you did not have before, and a short path to enlightenment.
I've been very fortunate, (must be good karma earned in a past life
), and have received 7, or so, pointing out, instructions, in both traditions. Maybe my perceptions and sensitivity are not as sharp as some, but I could not tell the difference. So for me, this would apply, both to the pointing out of the "store house" consciousness" and the "base" consciousness, though I have never labeled them as such, while receiving the pointing out instructions, and do so only in retrospect. The labeling is not important to me.
Books, books, books.
Here are some book that may shed light on the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra. My 2 cents is, " Do you want to read cook books or eat a nice meal." Each activity serves a different purpose. I guess I am trying to say, "Don't eat cookbooks when you are hungry." Have a nice baklava instead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baklavahttp://www.amazon.com/Union-Mahamudra-D ... 9627341215
"The 'Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen' means that no separation exists between the two. Both Mahamudra and Dzogchen contain three subsections. In Mahamudra the sections are called Sutra, Tantra, and Essence Mahamudra. In Dzogchen they are called Mind, Space,and Instructions sections. In the ultimate view of these two schools there is no difference." P17 - Introductory Teachings.http://www.amazon.com/Ascertaining-Cert ... 1877294004
"Why is it that the Rangtong approach is taught before the Shentong approach? In the beginning if it were taught that the nature of the mind is luminous, then you could say "Oh, yes the nature of the mind is luminous," while all the time maintaining a clinging to the self and clinging to phenomena as being truly existent. That clinging would be embellished by the understanding of phenomena s luminous. Whereas if you start out with the Rongtong view, you begin with understanding the different kinds of no-self, the no-self of persons and the no-self of phenomena and this cuts through clinging to the self and phenomena as truly existent, which is the basis for the teachings of the luminous nature of the mind. Once you have cut through ego and cut through clinging to things as truly existent, at that point, you are freed to see the luminous nature." P106
"There is a difference between the Rangtong school and the Shentong school in what is posited as the ultimate. Within the Rangtong school, what is posited as the ultimate is the the expanse of space or emptiness. It is also understood as being the dharmata that is free of mental elaborations, or free of complexity. In the Shenong view what is posited as ultimate is either the primordial wisdom, that is free of mental elaborations, or space and awareness inseparable. This is understood in a non-dual way. It is not that there is something to be realized, and something that realizes it. When you speak of space and awareness as being inseparable, you are speaking of the ultimate wisdom and the ultimate awareness. P. 94
Now can I have some Baklava???
That said, I have heard rumors, that the King of Dharma, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche taught EVERYTHING, of Dzogchen and Mahamudra (including †he dark retreat) to the beyond fortunate inner students of Ven. Trungpa Rinpoche.http://www.amazon.com/Clarifying-Natura ... 9627341452
Steps of Pointing Out Instructions" P40 - 47.http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Awakening-He ... 1590300963
If you Google Mahamudra and Dzogchen you get 140,000 results.
To answer the second question, whether a practitioner of Dzogchen is missing something if they don't also practice / study Mahamudra and vv, my answer is no.
When you have had some baklava (practice), from either school, your hunger goes away.
Now can I have some halva?
The key point is that it is human nature to want change and diversion, so some people like to do both Dzogchen and Mahamudra practice.
Maybe if you had to eat only halva, you would not like it, whereas other people like halva for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Some people like one thing and some another. Some people like a variety of things. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cuis ... and_sweets
This is why Lord Buddha taught 84,000 (means a lot of) different teachings so there would be something for everybody. Thank you Lord Buddha.
Thank you all Masters.
May this be of use to some one.
Good fortune to all and ALL!
May the the Dzogchen and Mahamudra Masters (and every one else) live long in good health with success in all things.