What is "mind" in mahamudra

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catlady2112
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What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby catlady2112 » Wed May 14, 2014 5:47 pm

I have been doing Thrangu Rinpoche's mahamudra meditations on locating and observing "the mind," and examining what appears in the mind. I have 2 questions about the meaning of the word "mind" in this context:

1) Does mind mean "all" of these things below (and possibly more I am not considering).

-The thing/experience I have that is aware of the coming and going of thoughts?
-The thing/experience I have that is still present when there are no thoughts?
-The experience I have of being unaffected by thoughts?

2) Based on the 3 elements I've listed above, are these also considered the "nature" of mind ?

Thanks for your help! (I'm rephrasing an earlier question I didn't ask clearly enough to address my root question)

Andrew108
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 14, 2014 6:35 pm

If someone were to give you a direct answer then this would be a kind of pointing out. I don't think anybody here wants to do that. Perhaps you might want to rephrase your question.? Maybe make a few assertions of your own as to what you think mind is. Then we could discuss those in a more open way.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 14, 2014 6:43 pm

catlady2112 wrote:I have been doing Thrangu Rinpoche's mahamudra meditations on locating and observing "the mind," and examining what appears in the mind. I have 2 questions about the meaning of the word "mind" in this context:

1) Does mind mean "all" of these things below (and possibly more I am not considering).

-The thing/experience I have that is aware of the coming and going of thoughts?
-The thing/experience I have that is still present when there are no thoughts?
-The experience I have of being unaffected by thoughts?

2) Based on the 3 elements I've listed above, are these also considered the "nature" of mind ?

Thanks for your help! (I'm rephrasing an earlier question I didn't ask clearly enough to address my root question)


You should ask your teacher.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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conebeckham
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 14, 2014 6:54 pm

These are good questions!

They should be asked of one's teacher, for sure.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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catlady2112
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby catlady2112 » Wed May 14, 2014 7:01 pm

Just to say that of course the first person I would go to is my teacher, but my teacher is very elderly, has many students and is not near me. I thought it's better to ask here than to do nothing.

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conebeckham
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby conebeckham » Wed May 14, 2014 7:21 pm

In the Mahamudra tradition, the essential thing is a personal connection, and communication, with one's teacher. The questions you raise are the beginnings of a fruitful discussion, but the discussion has to happen in real time, with a real Mahamudra teacher. That is the tradition, and I strongly feel that there are many good reasons for such a tradition. I urge you to take the time to contact your teacher, and try to connect personally...even if remotely. All the Best!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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Astus
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby Astus » Thu May 15, 2014 10:12 am

1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

tingdzin
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby tingdzin » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:44 am

Until you can see your guru, I recommend that you put your whole heart into answering these questions for yourself, not merely intellectually, but as central questions of your life, as if your life depended on it. Keep the questions fresh, and see what happens.

Crazywisdom
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:34 pm

Mental event: I will make tea. [grabbing tea]
Mind: [tea in hand]
I say we go back the same way we came. -Mad Max

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conebeckham
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby conebeckham » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:08 pm

"Tea In Hand" is a mental event, actually....if you're talking about the knowledge of holding one's tea cup, the recognition that one is holding one's teacup....that is a mental event, and not "Mind Itself" or "Ordinary Mind" or "Primordial Awareness" or all those other various terms...

What is it that is aware that one is holding one's teacup?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

Crazywisdom
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:14 pm

conebeckham wrote:"Tea In Hand" is a mental event, actually....if you're talking about the knowledge of holding one's tea cup, the recognition that one is holding one's teacup....that is a mental event, and not "Mind Itself" or "Ordinary Mind" or "Primordial Awareness" or all those other various terms...

What is it that is aware that one is holding one's teacup?


Gongchig II, 3.
"The momentary thought "I will do that"', for example, is mind.

The thought about the methods to accomplish those deeds is a mental event.

However the momentary thought of completing those deeds is mind.

Therefore, mind and mental events spin and arise by turns."


Mahamudra is beyond mind, "Mind" used as a shorthand for Mahamudra notwithstanding.
I say we go back the same way we came. -Mad Max

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conebeckham
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby conebeckham » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:54 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Gongchig II, 3.
"The momentary thought "I will do that"', for example, is mind.

The thought about the methods to accomplish those deeds is a mental event.

However the momentary thought of completing those deeds is mind.

Therefore, mind and mental events spin and arise by turns."


Mahamudra is beyond mind, "Mind" used as a shorthand for Mahamudra notwithstanding.


The minute there is cognition by the mental consciousness of sensory data...i.e., the thought of completing something, is not Nature of Mind. It is a mental event, for sure, a mental consciousness...but still a conceptual cognition.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."

May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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kirtu
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby kirtu » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:46 am

Crazywisdom wrote:Mental event: I will make tea. [grabbing tea]
Mind: [tea in hand]


But mind is not the nature of mind. I have to reread the passage as I was originally wondering how Jigten Sumgon could have written that but then it became clear. I don't want to mix in Sakya teaching but basically from Shantideva (I think) it is clear that mind itself as an entity does not exist. Nonetheless we have an experience of what we label as mind. Jigten Sumgon is certain to explain this as well.

In your example Jogten Sumgon is explaining mental functioning by the continuous cycling between mental perceptual events and thinking.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Jinzang
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby Jinzang » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:27 am

All phenomena are illusory displays of mind.
Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
manifesting as everything whatsoever.
Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.

If one says, 'This is it,' there is nothing to show.
If one says, 'This is not it,' there is nothing to deny.
The true nature of phenomena,
which transcends conceptual understanding, is unconditioned.
May conviction he gained in the ultimate, perfect truth.


The Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose

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lorem
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby lorem » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:21 pm

Meditation Guide for Mahamudra.

This is a nice free pdf to work off of. Written well, easy to understand and practice. Of course you do need a teacher to work with.

Some books on pointing out are restricted but to my understanding only so the student does not read the instruction/explanation beforehand and know the responses from a text rather than experience.
I should be meditating.

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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby thigle » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:08 am

"Mind" is the expression of conceptual reification resp. grasping.

muni
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Re: What is "mind" in mahamudra

Postby muni » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:31 pm

....
Your body has no core, hollow like bamboo.
Your mind goes beyond thought, open like space.
Let go of control and rest right there.


*Mind without projection* is mahamudra.
Train and develop this and you will come to the deepest awakening.

You don’t see mahamudra’s sheer clarity
By means of classical texts or philosophical systems,
Whether of the mantras, paramitas,
Vinaya, sutras or other collections.

Ambition clouds sheer clarity and you don’t see it.
Thinking about precepts undermines the point of commitment.
Do not think about anything; let all ambition drop.
Let what arises settle by itself, like patterns in water.
No place, no focus, no missing the point —
Do not break this commitment: it is the light in the dark.

When you are free from ambition and don’t hold any position,
You will see all that the scriptures teach.
When you open to this, you are free from samsara’s prison.
When you settle in this, all evil and distortion burn up.
This is called "The Light of the Teaching"....
http://www.naturalawareness.net/ganges.html
Remember that a thought is only the fleeting conjunction of myriad factors and circumstances. It does not exist by itself. When a thought arises, recognize its empty nature. It will immediately loose its power to elicit the next thought. And the chain of delusion will be broken. ~~Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche


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