My dramatic attention whore exit...

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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:21 pm

Tilopa wrote:I'm not disputing the validity of consort practice for those who are qualified. I just happen to think most people who claim sex is a traditional/important/necessary/legitimate part of the Vajrayana path are attempting to justify an attachment to ordinary pleasure.



In order to practice karmamudra you need ordinary desire. Then you need to inflame it, then you need to inflame it more.

People who say that to practice karmamudra you need to be free from desire have no understanding of Vajrayāna at all.

N
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:25 pm

Tilopa wrote:So called sexual yoga is not ordinary sex at all but a transformation of sexual energy into extremely powerful states of subtelty and bliss, something which can only be achieved by very advanced practitioners through manipulation and control of the channels, winds and drops.



This is just propaganda to keep monks monks.

While I agree karmamudra is not ordinary sex in so far as one needs to be somewhat adept at creation and completion stage, not only is there so called "karmamudra" there is also the so called "yoga of passion" which is connected with the creation stage.

Then of course, in Dzogchen Nyinthig, things are a bit looser and not as uptight as in gsar ma presentations of karmamudra practice.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:30 pm

LastLegend wrote:I think the issue here is honesty with onself and about what to expect on the path. It's no secret that sex brings pleasure, and this is what we are attached to.
.


Vajrayāna is a path of non-renunciation. Never forget that.

Now, if you are into renunciation and so on, cool. But that is not our path. In Vajrayāna we do not renounce sense pleasures, etc. Instead we take them into the path.

So, you practice your path, we will practice ours. :cheers:

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby LastLegend » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:46 pm

Namdrol wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I think the issue here is honesty with onself and about what to expect on the path. It's no secret that sex brings pleasure, and this is what we are attached to.
.


Vajrayāna is a path of non-renunciation. Never forget that.

Now, if you are into renunciation and so on, cool. But that is not our path. In Vajrayāna we do not renounce sense pleasures, etc. Instead we take them into the path.

So, you practice your path, we will practice ours. :cheers:

N


It is ok to enjoy sex. But if you want to realize enlightenment you do have do better. I have read Vajrayana lately so you cannot fool me.

I don't care what you do. You practice what you practice and I practice what I practice. But consider what I said as a polite reminder to you...only with good intention.
Last edited by LastLegend on Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Dechen Norbu » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:47 pm

Jikan wrote:I think you'll find Buddhists who view sex as a sinful activity. And you won't have to look hard, because some of them participate on this board.

Yes. That's sad.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:05 pm

kirtu wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I think the issue here is honesty with onself and about what to expect on the path. It's no secret that sex brings pleasure, and this is what we are attached to.


Ordinary people are attached to sex. However this attachment can also be used as a method to enlightenment. HOWEVER this is only for a small minority of people. Can the average person off the street fly a Stealth Bomber or the Space Shuttle? It's like that.

Kirt


Karmamudra is a discipline you do every day. Ordinary people don't practice anything every day. Karmamudra is for the person who, like a professional athlete, will put in the olympian discipline to master their channels. But that doesn't mean that person is some kind of magical incarnation. Discipline is a choice. Any ordinary person can make that choice.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Mr. G » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:07 pm

LastLegend wrote:It is ok to enjoy sex. But if you want to realize enlightenment you do have do better.


You are wrong according to Vajrayana...you need to stop mixing Mahayana views with Vajrayana.

I have read Vajrayana lately so you cannot fool me.


You may have read it, but you don't understand the position of Vajarayana in term of sex.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby LastLegend » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:12 pm

I said what I had to say. No bad intention intended. I will end this here.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:17 pm

Namdrol wrote:Then of course, in Dzogchen Nyinthig, things are a bit looser and not as uptight as in gsar ma presentations of karmamudra practice.


Really the sarma presentations, originally, weren't uptight either. It's not until the Tibetans picked it up that it became so hush hush and a bodhisattva's practice. They were trying to tie up disparate Indian practices into one monastery. Since when did they stop dropping semen and menstrual blood in the mouth of the initiate? That was tantra. It was intended to be a real down and dirty blood, guts and glory kind of spiritual path. Then, the initiation burst through nicety and convention with a total frak. Then, you get your consort, I'm pretty sure it was not normal sex already. It was trippy sex. The context of the arousal was within the visualization of the deity, and then having been frak in the initiation. It's not easy to recreate those conditions today. There are so many rules and fears. Somebody will call the police, so why would anyone try?

The Dzogchen approach is laid back, but doesn't really have the same four-joys practice either, no? From a Dzogchen standpoint, you could practice something like a neo-tantra, arousal of sexual energy, holdback, and integrate with pranayama, no?
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:25 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Then of course, in Dzogchen Nyinthig, things are a bit looser and not as uptight as in gsar ma presentations of karmamudra practice.


Really the sarma presentations, originally, weren't uptight either.



Yogically speaking, pretty uptight, many more visualizations, etc.

Since when did they stop dropping semen and menstrual blood in the mouth of the initiate? That was tantra.


Not referring to that.

The Dzogchen approach is laid back, but doesn't really have the same four-joys practice either, no?


It does.

N
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Tilopa » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:35 pm

In order to practice karmamudra you need ordinary desire. Then you need to inflame it, then you need to inflame it more.


This is true.

People who say that to practice karmamudra you need to be free from desire have no understanding of Vajrayāna at all.


This is also correct.

There's still a huge difference between those who are really qualified to transform desire on the path and those who merely think they are and then engage in ordinary sex while claiming to be practicing karma mudra.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:44 pm

Tilopa wrote:There's still a huge difference between those who are really qualified to transform desire on the path and those who merely think they are and then engage in ordinary sex while claiming to be practicing karma mudra.


If they are Vajrayāna practitioners, meaning they have the empowerments, the vow and instructions, then they are qualified. If not, then not.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:38 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Then of course, in Dzogchen Nyinthig, things are a bit looser and not as uptight as in gsar ma presentations of karmamudra practice.


Really the sarma presentations, originally, weren't uptight either.



Yogically speaking, pretty uptight, many more visualizations, etc.


The visualizations help to redirect the "winds," you know what I'm saying?
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:40 pm

adinatha wrote:
The visualizations help to redirect the "winds," you know what I'm saying?


Not needed from a Nyinthig POV.

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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby adinatha » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
The visualizations help to redirect the "winds," you know what I'm saying?


Not needed from a Nyinthig POV.

N


That's what KDL and NNR say. Makes sense, a lot easier.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby alpha » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:10 am

Why is only men discussing karmamudra ? :smile:
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:15 pm

alpha wrote:Why is only men discussing karmamudra ? :smile:


Do you find some significance in the fact that in this particular thread, most of us talking about karmamudra happen to be men? The signifcance is lost on me. :shrug:
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Madeliaette » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:20 pm

I would talk about it if i practied it, but.... :shrug:
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:36 pm

alpha wrote:Why is only men discussing karmamudra ? :smile:



Because women are prajñā by nature.
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Re: My dramatic attention whore exit...

Postby Jikan » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:07 pm

alpha wrote:Why is only men discussing karmamudra ? :smile:


This is teh interwebz. Are you sure these dudes are dudes, and ladies, ladies?
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