My dramatic attention whore exit...

[padma norbu]

Well, I've decided to take my leave of this place and just thought I would mention it so that nobody wastes a moment of their time responding to any of my posts. See ya and thanks for the conversations.

I don't know if this might be why Namkhai Norbu asks us not to discuss dzogchen online, but anytime I do, I just end up feeling frustrated and hopeless. Since I frame any Buddhist ideas in relation to whatever Dzogchen perspective I have acquired thus far, that means everything I would discuss is basically Dzogchen for me, anyway, even if I'm not really talking about Dzogchen.

I originally came here hoping to feel some convenient support in the comfort of my own home when I was going through a tough time, but this is just like all the other times I've tried to reach out to other dharma practitioners on the internet. I actually began to feel worse right away, but I used that as an opportunity to experience the energy and watch it dissipate. But, overall, I feel worse now about Dzogchen and my life in general after just a few weeks here than I did before I got here, so I'm leaving...

For anyone who remembers, it has been 15 days since I last got drunk and I don't think I'm going to have any problems at all on that front, so that's good. Now that I've got it in my head that it really is wrong and breaking samaya, it seems to have completely lost its appeal to me. It accomplishes nothing, it's a huge waste of time and money, destroys your health and overall causes you more misery mentally and physically.

However, in place of that issue, now I have an "I give up" attitude to deal with, which is actually worse. Pretty sure the biggest breach of samaya is giving up and that's really how I feel right now. Oddly, I don't feel like drinking, which is usually the case when I feel like saying "Frak it!" ...this time I don't feel like drinking. Rather, I feel like just living my life for fun and profit and forgetting all this stuff.

I actually feel trapped by thoughts now for perhaps the first time in my life. I don't believe I have ever felt that way because I've never really believed anything that much, especially something which I also believed could have such negative consequences for giving up on! Currently, I find myself threatened by breaking my commitments to something which... well, I can't even say because that would be breaking samaya.

So, I'm just going to live with these feelings and thoughts for a few days and hopefully they'll go away.

Going to try to "do my best" and that means not associating with other dharma students.

See ya!

[LastLegend]

Frustration on the path is expected and quite normal and perhaps even healthy if you are able to recognize what goes wrong. Remember practice and practice. The path is the path of detachment. So let go of all your attachments and you will have peace.

[Ngawang Drolma]

I will never have peace so long as I am under the impression that everything I have learned thus far is wrong or that I have to go learn some fraking ridiculous secret sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Sorry, but I think that is pure bullpoop and it's practically enough right there to make me seriously consider I have been duped by some ridiculous horsepoop.

PS - didn't really want to say it, but I have to be honest about what I'm feeling. Seems like elaborate rigamarole and superstitious cult nonsense. If tantric sex is that important to becoming a buddha, then it obviously should not be so super-secret all this time. And who was Siddhartha banging? I don't recall him mentioning that. How about Garab Dorje, the little grey vampire? Was that baby banging dakinis in the firepit? I used to consider the possibility of blind and deaf people trying to receive transmission and become buddhas, now I have to consider the possibility that people with erectile dysfunction could never attain. LOL. It's just absolute foolishness. We are told so many different things according to our lineage, it seems quite a hopelessly convoluted mess to me now.

[Adamantine]

I will never have peace so long as I am under the impression that everything I have learned thus far is wrong or that I have to go learn some fraking ridiculous secret sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Sorry, but I think that is pure bullshit and it's practically enough right there to make me seriously consider I have been duped by some ridiculous horseshit.

I think you're misunderstanding something here. There is no need to practice sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Those practices are for those whose primary affliction is desire and lust, --so it is a method for them to bring this onto the path and transmute it as the path of tantra is the path of transformation. The practice of Dzogchen is beyond tantra. You certainly do not need to do these other yogic practices if you are truly engaged in the Dzogchen path. If you have connected to ChNN then you are in good hands. Except, from what you say above I think you could benefit from real-life interaction with a Lama, as well as sangha. The internet is a poor substitute, and people on internet forums can be espousing all kinds of confusion and it's easy to get misled. If you PM me the general area you are in then I may be able to suggest a community or teacher you could connect with. I hope you don't abandon the Dharma, obstacles often arise, inner and outer and this is true for anything profound and threatening to all our habitual patterns.

[LastLegend]

I will never have peace so long as I am under the impression that everything I have learned thus far is wrong or that I have to go learn some fraking ridiculous secret sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Sorry, but I think that is pure bullshit and it's practically enough right there to make me seriously consider I have been duped by some ridiculous horseshit.

I can assure you that Buddha did not teach sex as a part of the path. True Tantra does not involve sex as a part of the path. So you are correct. Don't listen to people. Understand Buddha's teachings. Buddha taught suffering and path of detachment from all attachments (of course including sex, eating, and sleeping, wealth, fame, Buddhism,etc).

PS - didn't really want to say it, but I have to be honest about what I'm feeling. Seems like elaborate rigamarole and superstitious cult nonsense. If tantric sex is that important to becoming a buddha, then it obviously should not be so super-secret all this time. And who was Siddhartha banging? I don't recall him mentioning that. How about Garab Dorje, the little grey vampire? Was that baby banging dakinis in the firepit? I used to consider the possibility of blind and deaf people trying to receive transmission and become buddhas, now I have to consider the possibility that people with erectile dysfunction could never attain. LOL. It's just absolute foolishness. We are told so many different things according to our lineage, it seems quite a hopelessly convoluted mess to me now.

Calm down my friend. If sex involves, then you now know it is not the correct path. I have assured you. You also have to understand this is Dharma ending age, so Dharma is subject to corruption. Mara once told Buddha that he will send his minions to disguise as monks to tamper with Dharma.

[Adamantine]

I will never have peace so long as I am under the impression that everything I have learned thus far is wrong or that I have to go learn some fraking ridiculous secret sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Sorry, but I think that is pure bullshit and it's practically enough right there to make me seriously consider I have been duped by some ridiculous horseshit.

I can assure you that Buddha did not teach sex as a part of the path. True Tantra does not involve sex as a part of the path. So you are correct. Don't listen to people. Understand Buddha's teachings. Buddha taught suffering and path of detachment from all attachments (of course including sex, eating, and sleeping, wealth, fame, Buddhism,etc).

PS - didn't really want to say it, but I have to be honest about what I'm feeling. Seems like elaborate rigamarole and superstitious cult nonsense. If tantric sex is that important to becoming a buddha, then it obviously should not be so super-secret all this time. And who was Siddhartha banging? I don't recall him mentioning that. How about Garab Dorje, the little grey vampire? Was that baby banging dakinis in the firepit? I used to consider the possibility of blind and deaf people trying to receive transmission and become buddhas, now I have to consider the possibility that people with erectile dysfunction could never attain. LOL. It's just absolute foolishness. We are told so many different things according to our lineage, it seems quite a hopelessly convoluted mess to me now.

Calm down my friend. If sex involves, then you now know it is not the correct path. I have assured you. You also have to understand this is Dharma ending age, so Dharma is subject to corruption. Mara once told Buddha that he will send his minions to disguise as monks to tamper with Dharma.

^^^^ case in point.

people on internet forums can be espousing all kinds of confusion and it's easy to get misled.

There certainly are yogic practices in Buddhism that incorporate the union of a yogi and yogini. But they are not essential for everyone to practice to achieve enlightenment. They are suitable to some, not to all. And they are not degenerate. Sex is natural, as natural as children are, obviously. It is an odd christian morality that informs our culture with imagining it as a depraved act.

[LastLegend]

^ If you want to make an argument, I will be ready to respond to you.

[padma norbu]

I will never have peace so long as I am under the impression that everything I have learned thus far is wrong or that I have to go learn some fraking ridiculous secret sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Sorry, but I think that is pure bullshit and it's practically enough right there to make me seriously consider I have been duped by some ridiculous horseshit.

I think you're misunderstanding something here. There is no need to practice sexual practice to achieve enlightenment. Those practices are for those whose primary affliction is desire and lust, --so it is a method for them to bring this onto the path and transmute it as the path of tantra is the path of transformation.

In that thread, someone mentioned that it was necessary. In my subsequent Googling I read that it was historically described as absolutely necessary, too, but that over the years and different lineages, people interpreted that "necessity" differently.

The practice of Dzogchen is beyond tantra. You certainly do not need to do these other yogic practices if you are truly engaged in the Dzogchen path. If you have connected to ChNN then you are in good hands. Except, from what you say above I think you could benefit from real-life interaction with a Lama, as well as sangha. The internet is a poor substitute, and people on internet forums can be espousing all kinds of confusion and it's easy to get misled. If you PM me the general area you are in then I may be able to suggest a community or teacher you could connect with. I hope you don't abandon the Dharma, obstacles often arise, inner and outer and this is true for anything profound and threatening to all our habitual patterns.

Thank you for that. That's what I had originally thought, but it seems like every time I turn around on this forum people are disagreeing about something, usually rather adamantly and intensely, and everyone can't be right in a disagreement, can they? So I've decided to opt out. I live in NY yet there are no sanghas for me. I've been through it all before... just going to go back to practicing more regularly alone. It should go better now that I am not drinking and throwing the whole thing off every couple days or weeks.

[Adamantine]

Thank you for that. That's what I had originally thought, but it seems like every time I turn around on this forum people are disagreeing about something, usually rather adamantly and intensely, and everyone can't be right in a disagreement, can they? So I've decided to opt out. I live in NY yet there are no sanghas for me. I've been through it all before... just going to go back to practicing more regularly alone. It should go better now that I am not drinking and throwing the whole thing off every couple days or weeks.

I guess you think you've exhausted the Dharma opportunities in NY. But if you want answers to your questions it is much better to talk to a qualified Lama or Khenpo then to ask online in forums like this where you have absolutely no guarantee that anyone who replies has any valid study or training to speak of. Among Dzogchen teachers residing in NY there is Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche upstate at the Padmasambhava Buddhist Center, Dudjom RInpoche's own son Shenpen Dawa RInpoche, Khenpo Norgay at the Palyul Center who was a close disciple of HH Penor Rinpoche, and many Lamas that are passing through, often very high caliber ones. HH Sakya Trizen is up in Walden NY now, and will be in NYC at the end of the month where there could be a chance for an interview--> as the incarnation of a Terton he also is no stranger to Dzogchen.

Practicing alone is fine, especially if it is easy to get distracted or upset by others it may be best. But to resolve ones own questions about practice or general Dharma questions it is best to ask a qualified teacher directly rather then listening to an anonymous rabble. Although on here Namdrol is a Loppon and so is a qualified teacher in his own right, most others here don't have this type of qualification.

[Adamantine]

^ If you want to make an argument, I will be ready to respond to you.

What would you like me to argue? This is simply an issue of some reactionary individuals who are puritanical saying there is no such thing as union-practice in Vajrayana Buddhism, and if there is then it is a depraved degeneration and not really Buddhism. This claim has been leveled against Vajrayana for as long as it's existed. And yet many realized beings have been produced by these methods for thousands of years. Feel free to email Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to clarify. It is not necessary for a Dzogchen practitioner to utilize these methods, but the methods are valid, and should be respected as all Dharma should be respected, even if it does not seem like the right path for you. Why anyone feels the need to denigrate something with so much hostility that they have no experience with, and act like experts is beyond me. What would be the point of arguing with them, there are no facts behind their claims in the first place, just a lot of rhetoric. As a practitioner in the Dzogchen Community you should realize that Guru RInpoche is one of the main lineage lamas, and he undoubtedly practiced these tantric forms, with princess Mandarava and Yeshe Tsogyal among others. So try to be reverent and realize it is part of the tradition, even if it is not a practice you want to take on personally.

[gregkavarnos]

For anyone who remembers, it has been 15 days since I last got drunk and I don't think I'm going to have any problems at all on that front, so that's good. Now that I've got it in my head that it really is wrong and breaking samaya, it seems to have completely lost its appeal to me. It accomplishes nothing, it's a huge waste of time and money, destroys your health and overall causes you more misery mentally and physically.

Excellent! Well done! Keep up the sobriety and keep up your practice and everything will be just fine. Be prepared for ups and downs but like a roller coaster ride, its the downs that make the trip all the more exciting! Good luck on your path PN!

[Mr. G]

Thank you for that. That's what I had originally thought, but it seems like every time I turn around on this forum people are disagreeing about something, usually rather adamantly and intensely, and everyone can't be right in a disagreement, can they? So I've decided to opt out. I live in NY yet there are no sanghas for me. I've been through it all before... just going to go back to practicing more regularly alone. It should go better now that I am not drinking and throwing the whole thing off every couple days or weeks.

It's true what numerous members have said that Karmamudra practice is not necessary. I live in NY too and there's actually a lot of sanghas. Tibetan Buddhism, Pure Land, Chan, Theravada...etc. Pick one you like. Practicing alone is good too if you know how to gauge your practice.

[kirtu]

I will never have peace so long as I am under the impression that everything I have learned thus far is wrong or that I have to go learn some fraking ridiculous secret sexual practice to achieve enlightenment.

Enlightenment is a continuum. Since you practce Dzogchen, you are the body, speech, and mind of all the Buddhas. Why bother with this attchment to or rejection of sex? Why is it such a juju of great power for you? s Namdrol as succinctly stated it is mostly mother tantra proctice (so a Mahayoga practice) but Dzogchen is beyond tantra per se. In another forum he mentioned that Longchenpa (I think) basically said that it is a practice for the lustful. So what. And anyway if one accepts that, this is talking about attaining a bhumi beyond the 10th bhumi. Are you close to that level yet? If not why even bother with it?

You've gotten angry and this is your reaction. Don't bother with it. Either way one comes down this is going to be a controversial point in Tibetan Buddhism in the west. But practically speaking basically no one really practices this. It's like people getting angry over different views of emptiness. Anger over /attachment/rejection of views - Shakyamuni did teach about that.

We are told so many different things according to our lineage, it seems quite a hopelessly convoluted mess to me now.

Mahayana Buddhism is all about becoming a Buddha for all beings. Uncommon Mahayana (Vajrayana) is all about becoming aa Buddha in this very lifetime. As such it has a multitude of practices to support that. Dzogchen is all about the realization that you actually are a Buddha already for real and continuously maintaining the view. So what does this rant have to do with that?

Kirt

[Pema Rigdzin]

Hey Dharma brother, I wish to be supportive, like many of your other vajra siblings here...

Focus for a sec. Has your genuine guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, ever told you that you need to turn to karmamudra practice, or anything outside Dzogchen, to gain ultimate realization and benefit beings? We both know he hasn't. No need to worry yourself over things like that. Forget about it. Karmamudra is somebody else's job, and within such a person's context, karmamudra is very important and necessary. But karmamudra is not your job. Dzogchen is your job, and it does not need any help from karmamudra.

I do assure you, though, that if you were to receive a thorough explanation in plain language of the principles involved with karmamudra, in terms of the human body's anatomy and physiology and what exactly is being worked with, it wouldn't seem nearly as crazy. As it stands, though, with very few Westerners receiving these kinds of teachings, tons of inaccurate info floats around the net and it's all shrouded in mystical verbiage that confuses things completely. I assure you, though, it is an authentic Dharma practice, so please at the very least consider suspending judgment if you can't maintain respect for it outright. What would it hurt? You don't even have to think or talk about it at all, you know what I mean? You could just say to yourself, "I don't know much about it other than it's not necessary for me, so I'm suspending judgment" and then never think about it again.

Second, you're doing awesome with kicking the alcohol habit. Now you're having to deal with an "I give up" habit. Sounds like the alcohol habit was just masking the I give up habit, and probably stemming from whatever is driving the I give up habit. Now, without the alcohol to help you escape the underlying cause manifesting as the "I give up" problem, the "I give up" problem suddenly is suddenly in your face. I dunno, that's just what it sounds like reading your posts. I imagine it feels really shitty and overwhelming, but you have it in you to push through that and conquer it, so I hope you'll realize that. Look on the bright side: although this urge to give up and take the easy way out can be emotionally trying, especially without the alcohol as a distraction and self-medication, you used to have two very difficult problems and now you have one. So things are looking up, even if it doesn't feel like it! Anyway, I dunno how effective my rambling words will be at encouraging you to stick with your Dharma practice, but I hope you'll accept that they were typed with that intention. Best wishes.

[LastLegend]

^ If you want to make an argument, I will be ready to respond to you.

What would you like me to argue? This is simply an issue of some reactionary individuals who are puritanical saying there is no such thing as union-practice in Vajrayana Buddhism, and if there is then it is a depraved degeneration and not really Buddhism. This claim has been leveled against Vajrayana for as long as it's existed. And yet many realized beings have been produced by these methods for thousands of years. Feel free to email Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to clarify. It is not necessary for a Dzogchen practitioner to utilize these methods, but the methods are valid, and should be respected as all Dharma should be respected, even if it does not seem like the right path for you. Why anyone feels the need to denigrate something with so much hostility that they have no experience with, and act like experts is beyond me. What would be the point of arguing with them, there are no facts behind their claims in the first place, just a lot of rhetoric. As a practitioner in the Dzogchen Community you should realize that Guru RInpoche is one of the main lineage lamas, and he undoubtedly practiced these tantric forms, with princess Mandarava and Yeshe Tsogyal among others. So try to be reverent and realize it is part of the tradition, even if it is not a practice you want to take on personally.

This will not suffice.

[Malcolm]

[quote="padma norbu"]

Thank you for that. That's what I had originally thought, but it seems like every time I turn around on this forum people are disagreeing about something, usually rather adamantly and intensely.../quote]

That's Buddhism for you. Going strong for 2500 years.

[Adamantine]

This will not suffice.

I was really speaking to the OP, I never expected you to agree that you are being puritanical and your arguments are simply rhetoric. I wonder how you developed such certainty about a topic which you clearly know nothing about. . . I guess it's human nature. Samasara.

[adinatha]

If you are a Dzogchen practitioner karmamudra is not important. The karmamudra practice applies in a specific context of tantra, and then it has very precise application at a very precise point in time of one's development.

[gnegirl]

Good luck wherever it takes you with your practise, friend.

May it benefit all sentient beings, including yourself.

Dont give up, just listen to your guru, do what they tell you, and it'll be Ok.

The rest of the chattering 'net monkeys can be safely ignored then no?

[LastLegend]

This will not suffice.

I was really speaking to the OP, I never expected you to agree that you are being puritanical and your arguments are simply rhetoric. I wonder how you developed such certainty about a topic which you clearly know nothing about. . . I guess it's human nature. Samasara.

This is a chance for you to educate me. Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Vajrayana at all. But the practice of sex in the path is clearly not Buddha's teaching. You are welcome to argue against this point. I know that there are Vajrayana teachers out there who teach about visualization of a consort or dakini instead of the actual sex practice. This is accord with Buddha's teachings. Right now I am digging information about Geshe Acharya Thubten Loden.