Hello Everyone

[Lotus Lion]

Hi Everyone,

New to this site and wanted to introduce myself.

I am a Sikh: http://www.sikhs.org/topics.htm but study the Teachings of The Buddha also.

Got loads of questions but they will follow in due course.

Thanks for having me,

Lotus

[Ngawang Drolma]

Hi Lotus Lion, welcome!

[ronnewmexico]

I am a follower of buddhist teachings and have been for many years, using one particular vehicle for my spiritual practice, but am not necessarily a buddhist. A buddhist means many things to different peoples at this place in time.

All faiths have equal value to their followers in bringing them to compassionate action.
And religions have thusly been described as a smorgasboard from which one may choose what best suits them. What suits one certainly may not suit all.As what suits a large majority may certainly not suit one.

So I welcome your presence on this board. Though I personally may or may not be buddhist but do likewise participate.

[Luke]

Welcome Lotus,

I hope you find some information here which will benefit you.

The only thing I have against Sikhism is its association with fighting and warfare, which I feel has only brought its followers suffering.

[Lotus Lion]

Ngawang Drolma, Ronnewmexico and Luke,

I thank you for the warm welcome.

I have been studying the Buddha-Dharma for around 5 years or so and think that it is absolutely beautiful.

Personally i find that it really compliments my practice and deepens my understanding on certain topics because it tackles it from a slightly different angle causing it to click as it were.

Hopefully i should learn even more and, if permitted of course, contribute positively to the wealth of knowledge this forum possesses.

Wrt to the warfare aspect of the Sikh-Dharma, this is part of it, but is only used as a last resort and even then is founded on strong spiritual practice that promotes peace, love and harmony for all living beings first.

My best regards,

Lotus

[lisehull]

I know very little about Sikhism. Would you tell us more about your practices?

Lise

[Lotus Lion]

Hi Lisehull,

Sure that is fine.

[Moderators, I would just like to add that i come to this forum with nothing but respect. I came here to ask some questions on topics i wish to gain a deeper understanding in and perhaps shine a light on Sikhi (Sikhism if you will) whilst interfacing with Buddhist. If there is anything that you feel goes against the forum guidelines please let me know and i shall make the necessary changes.]

Sikh-Dharma

Sikhi is the re-introduction of The Teachings that came through an unbroken lineage of 10 Gurus over 500 years ago in Punjab, India. The Original facilitator of the Teachings was Guru Nanak and the Final was Guru Gobind Singh. Sikhs though do not differentiate between The Guru's and consider them all to be of One-Light.
This took place between the years of 1469-1708 making it over 200 years to re-express The Path fully and completely.

These Teachings have been recorded in Scripture - called the Guru Granth Sahib - and is the original Hand-written manuscript. It is currently stored in the Harmandir Sahib, popularly referred to as The Golden Temple.
For Sikhs though it is more then scripture as we have been instructed to consider this as The Eternal Guru. In doing so a direct connection is created with the Teachings.

Followers of the Sikh-Dharma are called Sikhs which literally mean "To Learn" or "Learner".

Basic Tenets:

One God
Sikhs believe in 1 Formless God that is known by countless names and is not separated from the creation.

The Guru Granth Sahib opens with the Alpha-Numeric of - ੴ - Ik Oan Kar - or, Everything is the manifestation of 1 Power.
The passages that follow in the 1430 page Scripture are an expansion and explanation of this.

Reincarnation
The Sikh-Dharma teaches that all living beings have been created with an innate divinity and that Humans are uniquely positioned to actualize this.
According to The Teachings, this life is a link in a long chain of lives that a person lives. This goes back into the past and will go forward into the Future. Depending on the way that a person conducts themselves they will be in a better or worse place next time.

Karma
Something that i think Buddhists are familiar with. Essentially the law of Cause-Effect. It is because of this there is a huge variation in the world and can be described by "What one sows, so they shall reap."

Both Karma and Reincarnation work hand-in-hand with the final objective to burn off all Karma and releasing them from Samsara.

Women
The Sikh-Dharma teaches that both Men and women are equals and are to be treated with respect and honor. They can enter the Gurdwara - Sikh place of worship - at any time and and take part in all services fully.

Practice
The Sikh practice consists of striving for an equnamitous state of mind, having altruistic sincerity at heart, and studying the Teachings so that we come to embody them completely.
The Teachings are passed on to through the medium of singing in the Gurdwara and a continuous Langar -Free Hot Food - is also served there for people of all faiths.

Understanding of other Faiths
Sikhi is a Dharma. Within the Sikh Framework, this essentially translates to a Universal set of principles that need to be activated as one walks The Path.
As a result, Sikhi teaches that there is infact more then one path to Enlightenment because it does not matter how things manifest but the underlying principle being present that is.
The natural result of this is becoming respectful and peaceful as well as living harmoniously with people of other faiths.

Buddha-Dharma within the Sikh Scriptures
There are several references to The Buddha's within the Sikh Scriptures. A prayer is read everyday morning by millions of Sikhs around the world. In this Prayer there is a line that reads:

"The Many created Buddha's speak"
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 6

Which means that the path that came through The Buddha is also True according to Sikh understanding.

As a result, Sikhs also respect and revere The Buddha.

I hope that this has helped to give you an insight in the basic tenets of The Sikh-Dharma.

Metta,

Lotus

[Luke]

Lotus Lion,

If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you another question about Sikhism: Why do you think it is that Sikhism never became very popular in India? On the surface, Sikhism looks like an ideal religion to unite Hindus and Muslims, but the history of India shows that this didn't happen.

Wrt to the warfare aspect of the Sikh-Dharma, this is part of it, but is only used as a last resort and even then is founded on strong spiritual practice that promotes peace, love and harmony for all living beings first.

Could you provide some quotes from Sikh holy books which support this? I'm not trying to harrass you. I'd just like to see the proof for myself.

In any case, if there is one thing which a Sikh and a Buddhist have in common, it is that India is the holy land for both of us. When India suffers, we suffer.

[Lotus Lion]

Hi Luke,

np at all.

My main focus is on philosophy, especially since The Sikh-Dharma is being introduced here.

"...Why do you think it is that Sikhism never became very popular in India?..."

Being perfectly honest it depends on how one looks at it.

The Sikh-Dharma actually appealed to the masses because they resonated with the ideals, The Guru was actively leading them on The Path, and The Teachings were passed on in a simply yet eloquent language understood by everyone.
This was in direct contrast to the prevailing attitude which was of subjugating the masses, leading them blindly and holding on to the teachings by communicating almost exclusively in Sanskrit.

As a result Sikhi was taken up very quickly by people from all walks of life.

However, The Sikh-Dharma had been being introduced during the times of Mogul\Islamic rule, and they were essentially alarmed at the rate of its growth, especially since followers of Islam were converting also.

What followed was the mass killing of Sikhs in an attempt to stem the growth of The Sikh-Dharma.
The Hindu Raja's and priestly class also assisted the Moguls as they did not want to lose control and would let Sikhs down at major points.

Dispite this, Sikhs came out on top successfully and lived in peace as well as prosperity where The Dharma grew naturally, freely and organically.

In many people's eyes, Sikhi is seen as the re-expression of The Dharma in the original form. Something that is clean, pure and unadulterated and what their Teachings spoke of initially before being compromised through the passages of time.

As a result, there was no issue when some one converted as they were simply returning to their pristine Teachings. It was actually a source of pride and people regularly would bring up their first son as Sikh and marry their daughters into Sikh Households because of its association with strength, nobility and virtue.

Unfortunately In 1947, despite everyone's best effort, India was partitioned due to a claim for a separate country leaving major Sikh Shrines behind.

As a result, Sikhs regrouped in present Day India and it is only now that Sikhs are really returning to the forefront and delving into the Sikh-Dharma with more depth, understanding and connection.

"Could you provide some quotes from Sikh holy books which supports [its understanding on warfare]?"

From The Guru Granth Sahib:

"He looks alike upon enemy and friend, and wishes well to all.
He alone is fulfilled in this world, who meditates on the spiritual wisdom of the Guru."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 1100

"One who contemplates the essence of reality remains awake and aware.
He kills his self-conceit, and does not kill anyone else."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 1128

"Those who follow the Guru's Teachings are the true spiritual warriors; they have conquered sexual desire and anger."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 1280

"One who dies, while fighting against egotism and alienation, becomes sublime and beautiful."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 256

"In the Saadh Sangat, imbued with the Naam, the Name of the Lord, I am victorious on the great battlefield of life."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 461

In any case, if there is one thing which a Sikh and a Buddhist have in common, it is that India is the holy land for both of us. When India suffers, we suffer.

Personally i feel that Sikhs and Buddhists have a lot more in common, but i appreciate and understand where one is coming from.

Thanks,

Lotus

[Luke]

Hi Lotus,

"One who contemplates the essence of reality remains awake and aware.
He kills his self-conceit, and does not kill anyone else."

That quote sounds great, and as a Buddhist, I give it two thumbs up.

However, how do you reconcile quotes like that one with the warlike history of the Sikhs? There must be other views of warfare in the Sikh scriptures or else previous Sikhs who fought battles were violating their religion.

Take this event involving the 6th Sikh guru for example:

There is an incident narrated by both Sikh and Muslim native accounts. During one of the battles, Har Gobind was rushed upon angrily by a soldier. He not only warded off the blow but struck and laid dead the soldier at his feet. "Not so, but thus is the sword used"; an observation from which the influence is drawn that "Har Gobind struck not in anger, but deliberately and to give instruction; for the function of the Guru is to teach". Har Gobind had many difficulties of a similar kind, but his Sikhs always rallied around him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Har_Gobind

Killing a person without anger is hardly any better than killing someone with anger. This majorly contradicts your quote above, or else this guru was not "awake and aware" while he was doing the killing.

And to really get to the heart of the matter, what do you think of the two Sikh bodyguards who assassinated Indira Gandhi? Was their action "justified" in your opinion? Were they being "good Sikhs"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... ira_Gandhi

In many people's eyes, Sikhi is seen as the re-expression of The Dharma in the original form. Something that is clean, pure and unadulterated and what their Teachings spoke of initially before being compromised through the passages of time.

Er, what do you mean by "The Dharma" here? Do you mean something like "the original essence of Hinduism"? On a Buddhist website, we usually use "Dharma" to mean "the teachings of Buddha."

[conebeckham]

First off, greetings to you , Lotus Lion.
I wish to express great admiration and respect for you and for your tradition. I have friends who are Sikhs, and have some basic knowledge they have shared with me.

Did you know that many Tibetan Buddhists consider Guru Nanak to be an incarnation of Guru Rinpoche? I have heard this orally, from a few teachers.....I'd bet there's some textual basis somewhere, but I can't quote it.

I am reading your posts with interest. I am interested, particularly, in the daily "practices" of a Sikh, could you talk about this, if it's fit for public discussion? In particular, common questions I've heard are:"Why is the hair (and beard) grown, and not cut?" Also, "Why do Sikhs take cold showers before dawn daily?" and "What sort of meditation do Sikhs do?" Another question, which may related to Luke's line of inquiry, is: "Is it true that all Sikh men are required to carry a knife?"

It's my understanding that the majority of Sikhs are Punjabi. Is this true? Can one convert?

I also want to comment on something Luke has said:

Killing a person without anger is hardly any better than killing someone with anger. This majorly contradicts your quote above, or else this guru was not "awake and aware" while he was doing the killing.

This is not true, actually, according to Buddhist teaching. Intention, and emotional state, have a great deal to do with the actions one performs. Killing out of anger, or with a "bad" intention, is much worse than killing based on other intentions. I can recount the story of the Buddha's prior incarnation on the ship, when he chose to kill, if others are not familiar with it......

[Luke]

This is not true, actually, according to Buddhist teaching. Intention, and emotional state, have a great deal to do with the actions one performs. Killing out of anger, or with a "bad" intention, is much worse than killing based on other intentions. I can recount the story of the Buddha's prior incarnation on the ship, when he chose to kill, if others are not familiar with it......

Yes, intention matters, but killing a human being in general seems to be one of the worst actions one can perform. Killing someone truly by accident may be somewhat different, but killing someone coldly and emotionlessly and killing someone with anger seem to be not too far apart on the ethical spectrum. I guess being outwardly cold while killing seems to imply inner, repressed anger to me.

[conebeckham]

What about killing entirely out of a wish to benefit others?

[Lotus Lion]

Hi Conebeckham,

I thank you for the Kind words. Truly appreciated.

I too have a deep sense of respect and admiration for The Buddha-Dharma and Buddhists in general.

Did you know that many Tibetan Buddhists consider Guru Nanak to be an incarnation of Guru Rinpoche?

I have heard of this also. An article was released on a Sikh site. Please see the below.

Guru Nanak and Tibetan Buddhism

by TARUNGPA TULKU

I have wanted for a long time to say something about my impressions of the religion of the Sikhs in India, and my connections with it.

After my escape from Tibet, I lived as a refugee in India for several years, alongside so many of my countrymen. There, I had the great good fortune to be looked after by a Sikh family, by Baba Bedi, his English wife, and their three children. While I was with them, I was able to visit many of the Sikh holy places and I was given hospitality there.

My interest in Sikhism is not only a personal one, however.

In Tibet, Guru Nanak is revered as an emanation of Guru Padmasambhava.

Many of our pilgrims visited Amritsar and other holy places, which they looked upon as equal in importance to Budh-Gaya. They always said that the Sikhs treated them with great respect and were very hospitable: "as our expression goes, they bowed down to their feet." It seems that the Sikhs really practice the doctrine of their religion; perhaps they are the only ones who give such wonderful dana (alms) to travellers.

Most Tibetans know that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, and the mystical ideas of our two religions are very similar.

I have noticed that the Sikhs never worship images in their shrines, but that there is in the centre the book, the Guru Granth Sahib. In our tradition, one of the last things that the Buddha said was that in the dark age after his death, he would return in the form of books. "At that time," he said, "look up to me and respect me."

Just as we do not believe in mystifying rituals, so in the Sikh ceremonies, it seems that the people simply read and contemplate the words of their text, so that no misunderstandings arise.

I was interested in the Sikh symbolism of the three daggers: in Buddhism, a knife often appears as the cutting off of the roots of the three poisons: greed, hatred and illusion.

I was also very interested in the Sikh practice never to cut one's hair, as this is also the practice among Tibetan hermits and contemplatives. The most famous of these was Milarepa, who said that there were three things that should be left in their natural state; one should not cut one's hair, dye one's clothes, nor change one's mind.

It is true that most Tibetan monks wear yellow, and shave their heads; these are practices that come from India, and symbolize humility and detachment from worldly things.

Outside the more organized monastic tradition, however, the emphasis is that the natural goodness and power of growth within should be allowed to develop freely without interference from outside.

Both Guru Nanak and the Buddha said to their followers that the real nature of the universe should not be limited by the idea of personal god and gods. Those who made offerings at their shrines should remember that the whole universe was the power offering, offered before and to itself.

It seems that there is very much in common between our philosophies.

For example, the belief in the role of maya (illusion) in bringing suffering and keeping us from salvation is a key part of the philosophy of both religions. Gurbani speaks of moh maya in many places:

houmai maar sadhaa sukh paaeiaa maaeiaa mohu chukaavaniaa
Subduing your ego, you shall find a lasting peace, and your emotional attachment to Maya will be dispelled.
[GGS 110:1, Guru Amar Das, Raag Maajh]

maaeiaa mohu eis manehi nachaaeae anthar kapatt dhukh paavaniaa
The love of Maya makes this mind dance, and the deceit within makes people suffer in pain.
[GGS 122:1, Guru Amar Das, Raag Maajh]

When I return to India, I hope to increase understanding of the Sikh religion among Tibetan people, and it is my wish one day to translate the Guru Granth Sahib into Tibetan. Now I am living in England, and I can see that much good might be accomplished by Sikhism in England, and Europe and America, and I wish success to everyone whose concern this is.

Source: http://www.sikhchic.com/faith/guru_nana ... n_buddhism

I am interested, particularly, in the daily "practices" of a Sikh, could you talk about this, if it's fit for public discussion?

Of course. As one can appreciate, practices vary from person-to-person and i am still growing so whilst the there is room to improve, I do my best to aspire to The Path completely.

I wake up relatively early, say 5:30 or so, have a quick shower and comb my full-length hair, tying it up into a Topknot and then proceed to cover it firmly in a "Rumal" - a Bandanna of sorts - so that it is held so quite neatly and tidily.

I then sit down on the floor with my legs crossed and proceed to recite a set number of passages and do my best to understand and integrate The Teachings.

I will then tie my Turban to encase my hair firmly and continue my day, clearly influenced by the Dharma.

At least once a week i will attend the Gurdwara -Sikh place of worship- bow to the Guru Granth Sahib and listen to the passages being sung before helping with the Langar - Free Hot food for everyone - as well as other tasks to help with the upkeep of the Gurdwara.

Meditation is an integral part off The Teachings:

"O Nanak, in just the same way, vibrate, and meditate on the Lord, single-mindedly, with one-pointed consciousness."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib p 1428

So attend Samatha Meditation classes around once a week or so with a teacher to guide me.

"Why is the hair (and beard) grown, and not cut?"

Everyone has a different understanding on this topic and I shall offer mine.

Below is something i have written before with slight modifications for yourselves:

Hair

The Hair is coiled up firmly and neatly in the style of a Topknot (called "Jhoora") to emulate the Final Guru, to actively connect to The Teachings, and for practical purposes also a Sikhs are instructed to live as family people.

What must be noted is that the hair is not necessarily being grown to full-length, rather it is unbinding oneself from a Man-made identity so that we reside in our natural state.

This Man-Made Identity stems from the Ego and stops us from recognizing our Divine Nature. Ones Divinity, according to Sikh Philosophy, is infact the essence of God and all living beings have been designed with this.

"Thus says Nanak: O my mind, you are the very image of the Luminous Lord; recognize the true origin of your self."
Sri Guru Granth Sahib p441

Any changes that are made are essentially reflections of the selfs fears and desires. People ensared by these impulses are out of harmony with the Divine Will (called "Hukam") and thus can be described as being spiritually ill. Because of this, ones feelings become disturbed and, accordingly, ones faculties and thoughts become unsound. As a result, one's Faith and knowledge of the Truth strays from what is real due to an altered perception of divinity.

To come back into harmony, one has to rectify these incorrect thought processes, and transmute all habitual impulse that have risen from the self. This can be done by following the Teachings that came through The Guru and consists of developing an Equanimitous state of mind, Altruistic sincerity and immersing themselves in scripture so they embody the teachings. This is described as The path of Spiritual Perfection and through this one can perceive the Truth as it really is.

It is during this process that one naturally returns to their original pristine state, unwounded, intact and pure, reinstating the full integrity of the body, situating oneself to understand and absorb the teachings fully as always intended.

Conebeckham, there are clearly a few more question but to answer them correctly i would need a little more time.

Luke, I will answer your questions also.

Thanks,

Lotus

[Luke]

What about killing entirely out of a wish to benefit others?

The problem here is that somebody could have a very distorted perception of what "benefits" others. Perhaps a person might think that it "benefits" the rest of the world to eliminate an entire race of people from the face of the Earth. Perhaps a person thinks he is killing a dangerous terrorist, but in reality, he has just killed an innocent civilian. Perhaps a crazy person has some hallucinations which lead him to believe that you will be some cruel dictator in a next life and he brutally kills you for the "benefit" of the world.

I know people want to pose the question of "Would you kill somebody who is 'absolutely bad' in order to protect your family which is 'absolutely good?'" but reality is always more complicated than these simple, hypothesized absolutes.

In any case, the whole point of Buddhism is to minimize harm to others. Therefore, we should be asking about how we can commit negative deeds minimally, instead of asking what is the negative deed of maximum intensity which we can justify or get away with.

[conebeckham]

Luke, I don't disagree with you.
But I merely wanted to point out that Buddhist morality is "situational," really...there's no "absolute" morality, unless one talks about the most serious offenses--like, for example, killing a Buddha, which I would say is an absolute.

And of course we're hopefully all sophisticiated enough to know that "killing," for 99.9% of us, is "bad," as we have no knowledge of the results of our actions. Intention, however, is more important than act, in the karmic scheme of things....which is something else I wanted to point out.

Tradition has it that the Buddha killed in a past life, due to some prescience regarding the outcome for others if he did not. As I understand it, he did suffer the karmic consequences of the act, but there was a "lessening" of the result as his intention was entirely altruistic.

[lisehull]

Dear Lotus, I wanted to thank you for sharing your religion with us. I had no idea Sikhism was so similar to Budddhism. What you have written has opened up an area I never knew anything about, both your religion and the cultural nuances that accompany it.
Thank you,
Lise

[Luke]

While I wait for Lotus Lion's reply, I also wanted to post something positive about Sikhs.

Here is an album of photos from a Sikh wedding in India. All the outfits are quite beautiful, and you see the groom in the process of having his turban put on.
http://www.pixcellence.co.uk/web/SlideS ... index.html

Although my favorite Sikh outfits are these blue ones which these men around the Golden Temple in India wear.


But what about this one??? Is this a real Sikh outfit? If so, what is the symbolic meaning of the huge turban?

[lisehull]

Beautiful photos, Luke. Thanks for sharing them!
Lise

[Lotus Lion]

Hi Lisehull,

It was a pleasure. Thank you for giving me with the opportunity to do so.

There are other areas which i believe that Sikhs and Buddhists share such as Buddha-Nature, the 8 Fold Noble Path, 4 Noble Truths, Mediation and so forth. Whilst the label may be different the underlying principle is the same, but of course there is plenty of time to discuss.

Conebeckham:

"Why do Sikhs take cold showers before dawn daily?"

This is a practice that has been borne out of ensuring that one wide awake and invigorated before studying the scripture. Also there is the concept of Maya (i believe that Buddhists are aware of this term?) and is a method used to helps to lessen ones attachment to bodily comfort.

"What sort of meditation do Sikhs do?"

We begin with focusing on the breathe and vary the length, duration and so forth as we advance through the stages and also use specific Mantra's as a means to hold the attention and focus the mind.

Sikhs also do Kundalini Yoga, but i must admit i have not done this before.

Within the Sikh Framework, it is highly recommended that one also cultivates a virtuous and wholesome state of mind at the same time to help ensure that one has a smooth and simple as journey as possible.

"It's my understanding that the majority of Sikhs are Punjabi. Is this true? Can one convert

A large percentage of Sikhs are of Punjabi\Indian Origin because they are the direct descendants of the original Disciples who followed The Guru hundreds of years ago.

However anybody is free to become a Sikh as it is a universal Path open to all.

"The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, shares the Teachings. The Guru, the True Guru, is Generous to all."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Page 96

There are infact relatively large and growing communities of Sikhs of Other Origin who reside in Espanola, USA, and practice the Sikh-Dharma fully, regularly promoting The Teachings and creating an awareness about The Sikh-Dharma in all spheres of life.

Thanks,

Lotus