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Enlightenment - Dhamma Wheel

Enlightenment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
greggorious
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Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:55 pm

This is a response I got on youtube when I said I thought Ajahn Brahm had attained enlightenment ;

"no he hasnt ,only the buddha has and the next one to attain full enlightenment is residing in the tusita heaven awaiting his future rebirth on earth when humans will live 80 000 years.Which will be in a long time, a very long time."

Most of you don't believe this mumbo jumbo do you?
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

Sanghamitta
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:08 pm

I believe thats called a closed question. Along the lines of " When did you stop beating your wife ? "
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:13 pm

I don't understand
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

SamBodhi
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby SamBodhi » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:18 pm

greggorious,

I think that Sanghamitta is saying that by calling it Mumbo Jumbo, you have ensured that nobody will want to answer the question because by answering it either way, yes or no, would acknowledge that it is "mumbo jumbo."

Maybe, I could be wrong.

with Metta,
pung S
"An inward-staying
unentangled knowing,
All outward-going knowing
cast aside."
--Upasika Kee Nanayon

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reflection
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby reflection » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:21 pm

A closed question can be answered with yes/no, but I think S. meant either a rethorical or suggestive question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestive_question

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. To me it doesn't matter what the attainments of others may or may not be.

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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:29 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:56 pm

Oh right, well sorry for aclling it mumbo jumbo. Perhaps I'm still heavily influenced by Mahayana, but I believe one can 'wake up' at any point.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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ground
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby ground » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:54 pm

One can make oneself believe in whatever one likes. There is no limitation.

Kind regards

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retrofuturist
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:16 pm

Greetings Greg,

Do you believe that arahants, non-returners, once-returners and stream-entrants etc. are "enlightened"?

Or only Buddhas?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:31 pm

I'm not sure what you're implying Retro? This seems to be going against my original point.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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retrofuturist
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:56 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:11 pm

Sort of, though I don't think it's that important to me right now. The 4 noble truths and the eighfold path and mediation are important.
I'm more mahayanan than Therevdan in my outlook, it just so happens I prefer Therevada meditations.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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retrofuturist
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:18 pm

Greetings Greg,

I suggest it might be worth a quick look at them... if you're currently framing the distinctions in terms of "enlightened Buddha" and "unenlightened worldling" (with nothing inbetween) and then seeing that Theravada doesn't talk about becoming Buddhas, and the next one not being here until the distant future, I can imagine why you're finding it distressing.

http://www.yellowrobe.com/teachings/the ... duals.html

Whilst the Buddha's dispensation exists, people may become stream-entrants, once-returners, non-returners and arahants. The Buddha himself was an arahant, and was at times referred to as "The Arahant".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

perkele
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby perkele » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:25 pm


greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:19 pm

Thanks, that has cleared it up. Although I'm confused because in Zen one can become enlightened at any moment, throgh zazen or koan practice, yet here you are saying it's a very very gradual process. So if one is "enlightened" such as Suzuki Roshi, in actual fact here you'd say he was merely a non returner?
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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retrofuturist
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:33 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:10 am

Thanks. I guess I'm always seraching for a reassuring response but never getting it. An act of ego no doubt.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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retrofuturist
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:23 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:34 am

Image




greggorious
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby greggorious » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:54 am

Thanks David. By the way was my last reply taken off? I mentioned my fear of lower re-birth.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah


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